Mandatory Minicamp (6.4 - 6.6) | OTAs (6.10 - 6.13)

[SemperFeist]

12 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

I wish these would imbed!

You need to change x.com to twitter.com to get the links to imbed

[vike daddy]

imbed vs. embed
 

Embed has many different meanings. It’s most commonly used as a verb meaning “to fix into a surrounding mass” (embed stones in cement) or “to incorporate or contain as an essential characteristic” (A love of color is embedded in all of her paintings), among other things.

Imbed is simply a variant spelling of embed—and it is much less commonly used. Imbed doesn’t have any different meanings, uses, or senses. It is simply a different way to spell the word embed.

The word embed is also used in a few more specific ways. It’s used in the context of digital files being incorporated into things. It’s also used in an entirely separate way in the context of a person, especially a journalist, traveling with a military unit or working closely with some group. Because these senses of the word are more recent, it’s even less likely for imbed to be used as an alternate spelling in these contexts.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/imbed-vs-embed/

[Cearbhall]

21 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

So if the consensus is that Underwood is our biggest bust, Cine will probably be very close.

Very close by what measure?

To me, Cine will never be very close to Underwood as our biggest bust. Cine has been a waste of space on the roster, but at least he is shows up for practice.  He is willing to trot out onto the field.  I haven't seen much to make me believe Cine knows how to play football in the NFL, but he is available to take a spot on the field in an emergency. Granted, I think WR Robert Tate or special team ace Marcus Sherels played CB better as an emergency option in the defensive backfield than Cine plays his primary position.

But still, it's hard for me to see Cine as anywhere even remotely close to Underwood as our biggest bust. I am sure there is a measure that would refute that, but I'll believe my own lying eyes over whatever that measure is.

[Duluther]

Underwood’s head coach at MSU told us/NFL to not draft him*. We drafted him and he never played a down to say the least.

Cine can at least fall back on a nasty leg break as well as being whiplashed with contrasting defensive schemes. He also made it multiple years and has played in games (even a few defensive snaps!). He was also drafted later in the first.

I don’t see an argument for why Cine should be considered Underwood-tier. 
 

* Been a while since I looked into the quotes, there may have been some caveats.

 

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Very close by what measure?

To me, Cine will never be very close to Underwood as our biggest bust. Cine has been a waste of space on the roster, but at least he is shows up for practice.  He is willing to trot out onto the field.  I haven't seen much to make me believe Cine knows how to play football in the NFL, but he is available to take a spot on the field in an emergency. Granted, I think WR Robert Tate or special team ace Marcus Sherels played CB better as an emergency option in the defensive backfield than Cine plays his primary position.

But still, it's hard for me to see Cine as anywhere even remotely close to Underwood as our biggest bust. I am sure there is a measure that would refute that, but I'll believe my own lying eyes over whatever that measure is.

Agreed, Underwood is worse because he was never really even on the roster officially.  But the dude was bipolar and almost one could consider him criminally insane at times and should have been in a state hospital around the time he entered into the NFL.  Not sure what he is like now, assuming he is highly medicated and potentially got help for his mental health issues.

 

Marcus Sherels honestly is pretty impressive.  Dude was a walk on at the U of M, UDFA into the NFL, stuck around because of his special teams play and ability to catch punts.  Had a pretty decent career considering that and had what almost $10 million in career earnings from the NFL.  I believe the guy lives in a huge house now down in Rochester, is part owner of two businesses and did pretty well for himself.  But yeah is hard to compare Cine to any player that actually plays on the field, even Booth at least sees a little game action despite not being good when he is in there.  Nuts Cine could not even really get that last year, will be really curious if he makes the roster this year or is just straight up cut, guess it depends on if cutting him saves the Vikings money or not.  

[vike daddy]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:55 AM, SteelKing728 said:

So if the consensus is that Underwood is our biggest bust, Cine will probably be very close. 

hardly. not even in the same tier.

[vike daddy]

28 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Marcus Sherels honestly is pretty impressive. I believe the guy lives in a huge house now down in Rochester, is part owner of two businesses and did pretty well for himself.  

Since 2020, Sherels is a co-owner of The Bin Cleaners, a contract sanitation service in Rochester, Minnesota. He also co-owns ETS Performance, a sports performance facility in Rochester, with former Vikings teammate Adam Thielen.

wikipedia

[Cearbhall]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Marcus Sherels honestly is pretty impressive.

Completely agree. Sherels was great.  The point I was making wasn't meant to disparage Marcus Sherels play in the defensive backfield (or Robert Tate). It was to point out that other guys that were emergency reserves in the defensive backfield had other primary responsibilities, yet they were still better than Cine has been in spite of the fact safety has been his primary responsibility from day one. The point was to acknowledge how bad Cine has been so Mr. @SteelKing728 could understand that I am not fond of Cine's contribution at all when I say that I do not believe him to be anywhere near the same tier of bust as Demetrious Underwood.  Cine getting cut would not lower my already low view of Lewis Cine as a MN Vikings football player. No argument towards lowering my opinion of Cine as a Vikings football player is going to change that for me.

Underwood, as a Vikings football player, is in a tier of his own and will remain that way in the bust conversation. That is speaking entirely about his contribution to the football team. I do not wish for that to be a comment on the reasons he was such a bust. Mental health issues can be very real and indeed it was for Mr. Underwood in ways that adversely impacted his life in a major way, which is very unfortunate. Football, and his status as a first round bust, is not, and should not be the primary consideration when looking at the case of Demetrious Underwood.  His demons are something that he has had to deal with. I entirely blame the Vikings organization for Underwood being a first round bust - not the young (at the time) Mr. Underwood.

Even with it not being the fault of Demetrious Underwood, the reality that his draft bust status is in a unique tier that Lewis Cine won't ever be able to enter (or even approach IMO) will remain.

I wish that there were reports of things clicking for Lewis Cine in OTAs this year. We all wish that. That it doesn't appear to be coming together for Cine should not put him into the same conversation as the largest first round mistake the Vikings have ever made. I'll keep rooting for Cine to realize his potential, but I am not the kind of blind supporter that would bet a single cent on that happening. The organization needs to be in position to move on. Cine needs to figure out what he wants to be doing and working to get there. I am not convinced that playing in the NFL is what Cine really wants to be doing. I don't blame him for taking the rookie contract pay day. I would have done the same given the opportunity.

I hope Cine finds something that he loves doing that he'll be great at. As a Vikings fan, I think it would be great if that was being an NFL player, but as a human being I hope he doesn't put pressure on himself worrying about what fans think about his status as a first round bust when he thinks about what he truly wants to be doing. He has most of his life in front of him. That is not at all unlike my hope that Demetrious Underwood doesn't give an iota of care about what I think of him as a football player. He is a human being with all of his value apart from what happened in the NFL. We need to remember that all players have far greater value beyond the football field than they have on it -- no matter how great us fans think they are as football players.

Marcus Sherels has done many things apart from football that have been great in addition to the high level of play he gave the Vikings on the football field. It wasn't my intention to make light of the times he was burned in the defensive backfield. Marcus is remarkable. It seemed like there was some this time of year every single year that were counting Marcus out. He rose to that challenge.  It would be great of Cine does likewise.

[vike daddy]

I think our next worst bust, and a tier below Underwood, would be Troy Williamson.

Yes, he suited up and played in games for us, which Cine really has not, but TW's mistakes literally lost us games. Nor did he ever improve.

Add to that he was, what, a #7 pick?

 

And I very much agree with @Cearbhall that when a player busts it as much or more the responsibility of our staff who spent hours and hours evaluating and promoting him during the pre-draft process, and then selecting him.

Edited May 26 by vike daddy

[vike daddy]

1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

lots of good stuff...

that was a remarkably caring and intelligent post, a pleasure to read.

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

Completely agree. Sherels was great.  The point I was making wasn't meant to disparage Marcus Sherels play in the defensive backfield (or Robert Tate). It was to point out that other guys that were emergency reserves in the defensive backfield had other primary responsibilities, yet they were still better than Cine has been in spite of the fact safety has been his primary responsibility from day one. The point was to acknowledge how bad Cine has been so Mr. @SteelKing728 could understand that I am not fond of Cine's contribution at all when I say that I do not believe him to be anywhere near the same tier of bust as Demetrious Underwood.  Cine getting cut would not lower my already low view of Lewis Cine as a MN Vikings football player. No argument towards lowering my opinion of Cine as a Vikings football player is going to change that for me.

Underwood, as a Vikings football player, is in a tier of his own and will remain that way in the bust conversation. That is speaking entirely about his contribution to the football team. I do not wish for that to be a comment on the reasons he was such a bust. Mental health issues can be very real and indeed it was for Mr. Underwood in ways that adversely impacted his life in a major way, which is very unfortunate. Football, and his status as a first round bust, is not, and should not be the primary consideration when looking at the case of Demetrious Underwood.  His demons are something that he has had to deal with. I entirely blame the Vikings organization for Underwood being a first round bust - not the young (at the time) Mr. Underwood.

Even with it not being the fault of Demetrious Underwood, the reality that his draft bust status is in a unique tier that Lewis Cine won't ever be able to enter (or even approach IMO) will remain.

I wish that there were reports of things clicking for Lewis Cine in OTAs this year. We all wish that. That it doesn't appear to be coming together for Cine should not put him into the same conversation as the largest first round mistake the Vikings have ever made. I'll keep rooting for Cine to realize his potential, but I am not the kind of blind supporter that would bet a single cent on that happening. The organization needs to be in position to move on. Cine needs to figure out what he wants to be doing and working to get there. I am not convinced that playing in the NFL is what Cine really wants to be doing. I don't blame him for taking the rookie contract pay day. I would have done the same given the opportunity.

I hope Cine finds something that he loves doing that he'll be great at. As a Vikings fan, I think it would be great if that was being an NFL player, but as a human being I hope he doesn't put pressure on himself worrying about what fans think about his status as a first round bust when he thinks about what he truly wants to be doing. He has most of his life in front of him. That is not at all unlike my hope that Demetrious Underwood doesn't give an iota of care about what I think of him as a football player. He is a human being with all of his value apart from what happened in the NFL. We need to remember that all players have far greater value beyond the football field than they have on it -- no matter how great us fans think they are as football players.

Marcus Sherels has done many things apart from football that have been great in addition to the high level of play he gave the Vikings on the football field. It wasn't my intention to make light of the times he was burned in the defensive backfield. Marcus is remarkable. It seemed like there was some this time of year every single year that were counting Marcus out. He rose to that challenge.  It would be great of Cine does likewise.

Very true but the reality is these guys are all football players and most likely they will be remembered as such for the rest of their life as only that.  A few lucky ones will become announcers in the media and can change perception of them as people through that being in the public eye that way.  But still they get even that job as an announcer because of playing football.  Of course they are more than just football players but for a vast majority of them, they will only be remembered as that, and especially for the big guys, I bet every single person that ever encounters them says hey did you play football?  Even if they just sat on the bench their entire career and never really did anything, I guess at least they can say yeah I played in the NFL if they made a roster once.  Yet if they did get a lot of attention when they played, and once they stopped playing it is a lot less, that is very hard to many guys to deal with.  

For Lewis Cine, possibly it has to do with motivation and want to, or handling massive amounts of money.  But either way being an NFL player is a very small window and I have never understood why they would not work as hard as possible, study as hard as possible, train as hard as possible to maximize the little window they have.  Ultimately maybe they are just bad players period and cannot handle it at this level after the injuries.  But if it comes down to want to, that is kind of sad.  As if anyone coming out of college could be paid millions for a few years and would not try to maximize every little bit of that before it ends.  

 

Heck now a days they really good elite players even in college are millionaires even before entering the NFL.  

 

Pressure from family I am sure is real, especially if both sides of ones family is completely depending on this kid to make it big and help support them all, and if they fail they will never hear the end of it.  

 

I never knew it before reading up on it, but Lewis Cine was born in "October 1999, in Haiti and immigrated to the United States at age four".  Also moved in with his Uncle at Cedar Hill Texas and was coached by Deion Sanders in high school.  So his family just moving to this country from Haiti when he was young, yeah I bet there was a good deal amount of pressure on him.  Same pressure possibly with Mac Alexander and his parents were Haitian immigrants and I believe his dad worked in the fields even in this country doing hard labor.  

 

So yeah sometimes their play is the entire meal ticket for their family.  But at least if I was in their shoes, I would not let effort or want to come into play really.  You get better by practicing, that is it.  No one magically can naturally do something great without practice and working on their craft, absolutely no one!  

 

[vike daddy]

So far in their young Minnesota careers, former first-round selection Lewis Cine and second-rounder Andrew Booth Jr. have left plenty to be desired. Cine, who suffered a major injury during his rookie season, has played in just 10 career games with one total tackle. Booth Jr., who did play quite a bit last season, hasn’t stacked up real well on the field even with garnering playing time.

The Star Tribune’s Andrew Kramer spoke on his latest podcast about a feeling that won’t make Vikings fans feel much better. He’s been told by people behind the scenes that the ‘lightbulb’ still hasn’t turned on for either of the two players.

“The phrase that I’ve heard behind the scenes is the light bulb not going on with [Lewis Cine and Andrew Booth Jr.] specifically,” said Kramer on Access Vikings. “So how do you interpret that when you’re not sitting in the room next to them as they’re studying these things?… So yeah, the light bulb is just not going on, and it didn’t go on last year.”

https://vikingswire.usatoday.com/2024/05/26/report-lightbulb-still-hasnt-turned-on-for-two-former-top-vikings-selections/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2_yAPc3JDsLRnlcKVbgZ1QOqa4NVzgFcy25fmNqWThqFI5Mu2qNeq-Q3g_aem_AQwJKrRSjyFvKIPMGbAkUnNsVJtG3pGAbZOtiEnykZT5r6ttbTcArOw5Hg73wxftwIU4D3oJWeFcBlP4fLwpiyTJ

[Cearbhall]

13 hours ago, Ozzy said:

But either way being an NFL player is a very small window and I have never understood why they would not work as hard as possible, study as hard as possible, train as hard as possible to maximize the little window they have.

Lewis Cine has earned enough money where he could be financially secure for life without working another day ever after his rookie contract. I am not sure if you are familiar with the Trinity study, but with that as my basis I could support the argument that Lewis Cine's $6MM in rookie contract earnings could allow him to live on an inflation adjusted $240k for the rest of his life.

A phenomenon not specific to professional athletes occurs once a person gets to their "magic number" -- the amount they need to save up in order to live their desired lifestyle for the rest of their list. At that point, reasons to continue to work are either that you love the work, you are greedy (an ugly trait shared by almost the entire ultra wealthy class), and/or you are addicted to work. Being addicted to work is a sad reality for many that often relates to one finding a large percentage of their self-worth in their profession and often not having an idea of what else they want to do. 

You mention Cine potentially growing up in a family with meager resources. That may lead to satisfaction with a meager lifestyle that could be supported by less than $240k per year with ample margin for comfort and potential unknowns. If he is not given to pointless greed and doesn't love the job it isn't hard for me to understand why he would coast through his rookie contract with no care in the world about a second NFL contract. I have seen many people coast out the last five+ years of their careers. I have known one such person very well for his entire life.

This discussion about Lewis Cine is, of course, hypothetical since I don't know the fellow or his motivations. It is entirely possible that he loves playing the sport and is putting in 100% of his effort. Many have done that and still not made it as far as Lewis Cine has made it. If Lewis Cine has made it to his magic number, and that is a very real possibility, why should he risk injury on the football field? He should find something that he has a passion for without basing that decision on finances.

Any of us could substitute in our own name to this hypothetical situation (with a few details changed) and consider on a personal level what we truly want to do. I would urge us to not overly invest in work we find meaningless. Consider it at a personal level and you may begin to understand why an NFL player might not work as hard as possible, study as hard as possible, and/or train as hard as possible.

It's not great for the team, and that matters to us as we are fans of the team, but IMO anyone that is able to understand in their mid 20s what it takes most of us decades more to figure out is someone that I would congratulate. I spent too many years working too many ultimately pointless and unfulfilling hours as my children grew up because I fell into the trap of working hard trying to progress me career as if it was the goal -- not a means to an end. If any of you are at a stage where you can avoid the same mistake that I made I hope you will choose a different path. 

It is not fun dealing with a daughter in her 20s that is bitter and full of resentment because you lost sight of what is actually one of the most important things in life, but she's home for Memorial Day weekend and will be waking up soon so I am going to get busy doing something more productive than trying to rationalize why a professional athlete in his 20s theoretically might choose something other than working hard at his craft.

[SteelKing728]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:20 PM, Duluther said:

Nailor is the exact kind of WR that flashes in non-padded practices. Will have to see if he is still flashing closer to the regular season. Powell was more than satisfactory as a #4/3 last year.

I said the same thing about KJ Osborn and he caught on his 2nd and 3rd years here. 

Maybe Nailor does the same?

[Ozzy]

41 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Lewis Cine has earned enough money where he could be financially secure for life without working another day ever after his rookie contract. I am not sure if you are familiar with the Trinity study, but with that as my basis I could support the argument that Lewis Cine's $6MM in rookie contract earnings could allow him to live on an inflation adjusted $240k for the rest of his life.

A phenomenon not specific to professional athletes occurs once a person gets to their "magic number" -- the amount they need to save up in order to live their desired lifestyle for the rest of their list. At that point, reasons to continue to work are either that you love the work, you are greedy (an ugly trait shared by almost the entire ultra wealthy class), and/or you are addicted to work. Being addicted to work is a sad reality for many that often relates to one finding a large percentage of their self-worth in their profession and often not having an idea of what else they want to do. 

You mention Cine potentially growing up in a family with meager resources. That may lead to satisfaction with a meager lifestyle that could be supported by less than $240k per year with ample margin for comfort and potential unknowns. If he is not given to pointless greed and doesn't love the job it isn't hard for me to understand why he would coast through his rookie contract with no care in the world about a second NFL contract. I have seen many people coast out the last five+ years of their careers. I have known one such person very well for his entire life.

This discussion about Lewis Cine is, of course, hypothetical since I don't know the fellow or his motivations. It is entirely possible that he loves playing the sport and is putting in 100% of his effort. Many have done that and still not made it as far as Lewis Cine has made it. If Lewis Cine has made it to his magic number, and that is a very real possibility, why should he risk injury on the football field? He should find something that he has a passion for without basing that decision on finances.

Any of us could substitute in our own name to this hypothetical situation (with a few details changed) and consider on a personal level what we truly want to do. I would urge us to not overly invest in work we find meaningless. Consider it at a personal level and you may begin to understand why an NFL player might not work as hard as possible, study as hard as possible, and/or train as hard as possible.

It's not great for the team, and that matters to us as we are fans of the team, but IMO anyone that is able to understand in their mid 20s what it takes most of us decades more to figure out is someone that I would congratulate. I spent too many years working too many ultimately pointless and unfulfilling hours as my children grew up because I fell into the trap of working hard trying to progress me career as if it was the goal -- not a means to an end. If any of you are at a stage where you can avoid the same mistake that I made I hope you will choose a different path. 

It is not fun dealing with a daughter in her 20s that is bitter and full of resentment because you lost sight of what is actually one of the most important things in life, but she's home for Memorial Day weekend and will be waking up soon so I am going to get busy doing something more productive than trying to rationalize why a professional athlete in his 20s theoretically might choose something other than working hard at his craft.

Very true work is not everything, but almost everyone also does not have a job like an NFL player with so much fan fair, attention and notoriety.  A job where if you were good you will be remembered for that little 5-10 year span for the rest of your life and that job could carry you to many other successful things just because of the fame it brought you.  Working at a desk job making a billion dollar company more money is not giving you that same fame and attention from a big part of this society so that is a massive difference.  

 

And of course Lewis can live his life off of what he made on his rookie deal.  That is no the question, the question is why would he not want to improve and make more over the next 4-7 years.  Honestly I seriously doubt he is doing all he can to improve as a football player but sure that is a projection on my part.  Someone that athletic to be this bad at the game, well it basically is his lack in awareness as to what is going on and lacking fundamental skill like tackling, anticipation or ball skills.  All of those things can be practiced, that is my point, defenders are not naturally aware, they are aware because they study, watch tape which helps their anticipation.  Not to mention practice the very difficult footwork that is needed to play defensive back well in the NFL.

 

As for children today, yes most kids now a days are pretty damn difficult.  There are little 3 year olds having the attitude as if they were a teenager.  Talking back to adults, swearing at them, acting all entitled, pissed off and generally unregulated.  The number of kids with special needs is sky rocketing and the system in place cannot handle that many needs and it overwhelms the system entirely.  Not to mention even at that young age being controlled by a tablet or any technology they can play a game on and being generally annoyed and "bored" when they are not on it or watching some stupid Minions movie or something.  And those movies in themselves teach a young kid to basically act like an idiot, fall down, get hurt to get laughed at by your peers, how wonderful.  Then again how would a young adult or even child not act oddly when one has a potential President of this country run again who is basically a criminal and both candidates are so old they should be in a nursing home, the news if watched is awful every single day all over the world with all the bad things going on, prices for everything are going higher and higher.  Just for a new family to get a home is ridiculously difficult unless they have worked and saved money with a well paying job for years or have rich family members who can help them buy it.  America does have it a bit backwards, some other countries get tons of paid time off, where America is what 2nd worst in the world in paid time off on average.  Sure some people have tons of it but most of the work force does not.  

 

It is a hard time to be an adult, a lot of stresses on life currently and that is for someone who has worked a long time, think about coming out of high school into this disaster.  What $100,000 in debit from a four year college and you are not a Doctor, Lawyer or Vet with that degree...  Life is hard, thus playing a football game and getting played millions, that seems pretty sweet compared to what most of us have to do.  

 

And yes to any parents, yes raising your child is the most important thing you will do.  The school system most try and just have them do it but that does not work that way, the parent has to be the #1 teacher, not the school system.  Because you do have a massive play in how they turn out and who they are as people.  It is a crazy hard job though and you will get almost zero credit for it unless you have some crazy successful, famous child or something.  And being a good parent is hard if you cannot be around or are working so hard to support a family in this crazy economic time of high prices on everything.  Just that is a great labor of love to financially support a family, because without that things are massively different, but some family members easily forget how hard it is to make a good amount of money especially if one is the main breadwinner.  There is a ton of stress with that, especially if work is not going well, but once more that burden is a lot easier when you are working at a famous job with super high attention like playing in the NFL.  Oh and by the way will only be doing it for a max 12-17 years, then will be pretty set the rest of your life afterwards thus maybe one should hold onto that a bit.