Steelers extend HC Mike Tomlin through 2027

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

Is it?

Stretch of years without a playoff win:

Andy Reid - 9/11 (2007-2017)
John Harbaugh - 8/10 (2013-2022)
Don Shula - 9/10 (1974-1983)
Bill Parcells - 9/11 (1993-2006)
Tom Landry - 9/11 (1960-1970)
Chuck Noll - 10/12 (1980-1991)

None of these are quite as bad as 11/13, to your point, but I would also argue all of these guys, except maybe Harbaugh (but he’s certainly on par if not better), are historically considered better coaches than Tomlin.

I guess it seems common to me to have stretches without playoff success like this when you have a career of 15+ years, especially if you aren’t an all time elite coach.*

* - I think Tomlin prolly a HoF coach but not like a top 10 all timer

What a bunch of scrubs!   

[43M]

I always see outside fans defend Tomlin because he never has a losing season, and fans say things like "you could do worse".

While I agree you could do worse, the question is...at what point is what Tomlin does not enough?

The ultimate goal of every team is to win championships.     If you have a coach who can always get you to a certain point but never over the hump....how long until you say "okay, we have to chance it and try another coach"?    

Sure, you may go backwards, but when you are spinning tires year after year and not making the changes to move forward, that seems even worse.    

Seriously...if 3 years from now, the Steelers have two more playoff APPEARANCES and maybe one more playoff WIN....are people going to be singing the same tune?   That Tomlin should get ANOTHER extension simply because he is good enough to get the Steelers to .500 every year with the occasional unspectacular playoff appearance?

Again....when is that not enough?   Or do we just continue blaming everyone EXCEPT Tomlin for the Steelers shortcomings?

And no, I do not hate Tomlin or even dislike him.   I spent years defending the guy, but at a certain point, you have to accept the reality of the situation.     I don't blame Tomlin for everything, but Im getting tired of seeing people acting like he doesnt have a major hand in this teams failures over the last 10+ years.     

[Soggust]

2 hours ago, 43M said:

The ultimate goal of every team is to win championships.     If you have a coach who can always get you to a certain point but never over the hump....how long until you say "okay, we have to chance it and try another coach"?  

But he has gotten over the hump lol.

 

2 hours ago, 43M said:

Seriously...if 3 years from now, the Steelers have two more playoff APPEARANCES and maybe one more playoff WIN....are people going to be singing the same tune?   That Tomlin should get ANOTHER extension simply because he is good enough to get the Steelers to .500 every year with the occasional unspectacular playoff appearance?

Yes because many folks don’t have this a “rings culture” perspective around a stat that isn’t even rings (Playoff wins) 

 

2 hours ago, 43M said:

And no, I do not hate Tomlin or even dislike him.   I spent years defending the guy, but at a certain point, you have to accept the reality of the situation.     I don't blame Tomlin for everything, but Im getting tired of seeing people acting like he doesnt have a major hand in this teams failures over the last 10+ years.     

How much have the Steelers “failed” in the last 10 years? 

Since 2014, the Steelers have the SECOND BEST winning percentage in football. 

Sure, they don’t have a ring in that span, but only 6 teams do. So, should we have expected one?

Well, idk the John Nash equilibrium would suggest that, in a vacuum, a team is supposed to win 1 every 32 years, so seems he’s ahead of schedule there as well.

But I think this is the part where you tell me Pittsburgh isn’t like the other plebeian cities and has a higher standard etc .  

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

How much have the Steelers “failed” in the last 10 years? 

Since 2014, the Steelers have the SECOND BEST winning percentage in football. 

 

I had a long long train of thought post yesterday on this topic and did some research based on Vegas odds and:

Steelers 4 overachieving seasons, Ravens 2, Browns 2

Steelers 2 expected years, Ravens 4, Browns1

Steelers 2 underachieving years, Ravens 1, Browns 5

I explained that I’m not so upset about the lack of playoff success because most those losses came in year we over achieved compared to expectations (2020, 2021, 2023 being 3 of the big years). 

I also posted this bit on two other coaches:

Heck even a common comparison - Andy Reid was 12-26 his last 3 years in Philly without McNabb (his son also overdosed on heroin at camp while acting as an assistant strength and conditioning coach), won 1 playoff game in 5 years with Alex Smith as the QB in KC. When Andy left Philly the departure had more to do with his son and the poor record while having total personnel control. Without Mahomes, Andy is a .667 record with an 11-13 playoff record, 5 conference championships, and 1 SB visit. Without Ben, Tomlin is a .780 win with and 0-1 record without Mahomes. I am kinda curious what we would be thinking of Andy Reid if they didn’t have Mahomes in KC. Because without him Andy and Tomlin are the same win rate in the playoffs (45%), but Tomlin has the extra SB visit and the win.

Let’s use another coach because without Brady, Belichick has had a similar roster to the Steelers IMO. In 4 years without Brady he lost his only playoff game and has a 0.431 record. In that time frame the Patriots saw a touch less roster turnover compared to the Steelers but faired much much worse. Now I know Brady is the GOAT and losing him was going to be a huge dent, but that great of a coach should have been able to keep that team somewhat competitive through a rebuild and not get himself fired through terrible personnel decisions and poor player development.

The more I look into these instances coaches tend to be let go because of a prolonged (2/3 or 3/4) losing seasons, a decline in development, and maybe a playoff visit after losing their franchise QB. In that time not only have we not dipped to that low, we got to the playoffs 3/4 rebuilding years and saw a massive turnover in personnel and philosophy from being an offense first team in 2017 to defense first by 2022 to balanced hopefully this year.

If you want to count the playoff losses and .559 record in two years that same low as .315 over 3 and .431 over 3 that ended those regimes with their respective long term teams, then ok. For what it’s worth the Steelers need to go 0-17 this year for Tomlin to land right between the record that got Reid and Belichick fired at a .373. I don’t think that’s likely. 

[El Ramster]

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

I had a long long train of thought post yesterday on this topic and did some research based on Vegas odds and:

 

Steelers 4 overachieving seasons, Ravens 2, Browns 2

Steelers 2 expected years, Ravens 4, Browns1

Steelers 2 underachieving years, Ravens 1, Browns 5

I explained that I’m not so upset about the lack of playoff success because most those losses came in year we over achieved compared to expectations (2020, 2021, 2023 being 3 of the big years). 

I also posted this bit on two other coaches:

 

Heck even a common comparison - Andy Reid was 12-26 his last 3 years in Philly without McNabb (his son also overdosed on heroin at camp while acting as an assistant strength and conditioning coach), won 1 playoff game in 5 years with Alex Smith as the QB in KC. When Andy left Philly the departure had more to do with his son and the poor record while having total personnel control. Without Mahomes, Andy is a .667 record with an 11-13 playoff record, 5 conference championships, and 1 SB visit. Without Ben, Tomlin is a .780 win with and 0-1 record without Mahomes. I am kinda curious what we would be thinking of Andy Reid if they didn’t have Mahomes in KC. Because without him Andy and Tomlin are the same win rate in the playoffs (45%), but Tomlin has the extra SB visit and the win.

Let’s use another coach because without Brady, Belichick has had a similar roster to the Steelers IMO. In 4 years without Brady he lost his only playoff game and has a 0.431 record. In that time frame the Patriots saw a touch less roster turnover compared to the Steelers but faired much much worse. Now I know Brady is the GOAT and losing him was going to be a huge dent, but that great of a coach should have been able to keep that team somewhat competitive through a rebuild and not get himself fired through terrible personnel decisions and poor player development.

The more I look into these instances coaches tend to be let go because of a prolonged (2/3 or 3/4) losing seasons, a decline in development, and maybe a playoff visit after losing their franchise QB. In that time not only have we not dipped to that low, we got to the playoffs 3/4 rebuilding years and saw a massive turnover in personnel and philosophy from being an offense first team in 2017 to defense first by 2022 to balanced hopefully this year.

If you want to count the playoff losses and .559 record in two years that same low as .315 over 3 and .431 over 3 that ended those regimes with their respective long term teams, then ok. For what it’s worth the Steelers need to go 0-17 this year for Tomlin to land right between the record that got Reid and Belichick fired at a .373. I don’t think that’s likely. 

Is there a structure in which we can judge Tomlin without players drafted by Bill? Like since Ben retired. I feel like being carried by a franchise QB kinda devalues anything he’s done. I feel like he’s more of the guy without Ben… What exactly is he good at? Massaging egos? Drafting insane guys and making them play? Idk. It’s been such a long time since he’s done anything. Steeler fans sounding like cowboy fans. Bringing up the past in such a present time… I’ve seen elite coaches. I don’t think Tomlin scratches any box in any criteria. Besides the old saying the grass isn’t as green!

[Soggust]

11 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

Is there a structure in which we can judge Tomlin without players drafted by Bill? Like since Ben retired. I feel like being carried by a franchise QB kinda devalues anything he’s done. I feel like he’s more of the guy without Ben… What exactly is he good at? Massaging egos? Drafting insane guys and making them play? Idk. It’s been such a long time since he’s done anything. Steeler fans sounding like cowboy fans. Bringing up the past in such a present time… I’ve seen elite coaches. I don’t think Tomlin scratches any box in any criteria. Besides the old saying the grass isn’t as green!

Scared to ask you this because I think you’re one of the only posters wild enough to take the extreme positions* (and I swear to god I mean that as a compliment, believe it or not) but I’m gonna ask you anyway -

Should we judge Belichick only on his Mac Jones /  CLE days?

Andy on his post-McNabb pre-Mahomes days?

Walsh on his non-Montana years?

Noll on his non Bradshaw years?

Shanny on his non-Purdy years? (Lol jk I had to) 
 

* - edit : maybe “good enough to debate the extremes” is a better way to phrase what I mean 

Edited June 13 by Soggust

[warfelg]

28 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

I feel like being carried by a franchise QB kinda devalues anything he’s done. I feel like he’s more of the guy without Ben… What exactly is he good at?

He has a winning record without Ben, top 10 scoring defense 11/17 years he’s been HC at. Players and other coaches continually talk about how he’s highly detailed. Other coaches point to him as incredibly smart.

I feel like all that data I put out there shows he’s done plenty. Outperformed projected win totals, kept bottom 5 QB play in the playoff hunt, kept the defense top half in a year he was missing a DPOY (Watt) or our best run defender (Cam).

Personally I feel when you look at our drafts from 2017 to now and look at our records, along with losing more quality players than we brought in, how can you land on coaching not being the reason we aren’t bottomed out.

[El Ramster]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

He has a winning record without Ben, top 10 scoring defense 11/17 years he’s been HC at. Players and other coaches continually talk about how he’s highly detailed. Other coaches point to him as incredibly smart.

I feel like all that data I put out there shows he’s done plenty. Outperformed projected win totals, kept bottom 5 QB play in the playoff hunt, kept the defense top half in a year he was missing a DPOY (Watt) or our best run defender (Cam).

Personally I feel when you look at our drafts from 2017 to now and look at our records, along with losing more quality players than we brought in, how can you land on coaching not being the reason we aren’t bottomed out.

That’s fair enough. 

[jebrick]

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

He has a winning record without Ben, top 10 scoring defense 11/17 years he’s been HC at. Players and other coaches continually talk about how he’s highly detailed. Other coaches point to him as incredibly smart.

I feel like all that data I put out there shows he’s done plenty. Outperformed projected win totals, kept bottom 5 QB play in the playoff hunt, kept the defense top half in a year he was missing a DPOY (Watt) or our best run defender (Cam).

Personally I feel when you look at our drafts from 2017 to now and look at our records, along with losing more quality players than we brought in, how can you land on coaching not being the reason we aren’t bottomed out.

But Super Bowls!!!

[warfelg]

24 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Should we judge Belichick only on his Mac Jones /  CLE days?

Andy on his post-McNabb pre-Mahomes days?

Walsh on his non-Montana years?

Noll on his non Bradshaw years?

Shanny on his non-Purdy years? (Lol jk I had to) 
 

Those records I posted:
Reid without McNabb/Mahomes/Smith is a .431 record

Belichick in NE without Brady is a .315 record

Tomlin without Ben is a .559 record

 

To end up in the same area as those two without their star QB’s Tomlin has to go 0-17 this year for a .372 record. In the 3 most resent years without Ben our QB’s have been Mason Rudolph, Mitch Trubisky, Kenny Pickett, Duck Hodgins. Bottom 6-7 QB play out of that group. Yet we made the playoffs one of those times and came down to last game for the other two. And in 2020 if you actually thought we were as good as our record says I got beach front property in Iowa for you.

[Soko]

6 hours ago, 43M said:

I Seriously...if 3 years from now, the Steelers have two more playoff APPEARANCES and maybe one more playoff WIN....are people going to be singing the same tune?   That Tomlin should get ANOTHER extension simply because he is good enough to get the Steelers to .500 every year with the occasional unspectacular playoff appearance?

If he keeps getting stuck with crappy QBs, yeah, IMO. 

Winning championships is the goal, but I can’t really fault the guy for not winning it with Kenny Pickett, cooked Russell Wilson, and Justin Fields. I’m not confident in any HC in the league contending for a championship with any of those guys at QB. 

[StatKing]

On 6/11/2024 at 11:06 AM, 7DnBrnc53 said:

This just figures. The ownership doesn't care about winning (but something else that I won't mention here), and they are demonstrating it by extending this guy.

As Mark Madden basically said, Tomlin stopped being a good coach after most of Cowher's vets left.

The only situation that is more screwed up is in Denver, where they have had the same people in the FO since around 2017 that draft the same type of players (tall CB's that can't cover, 4-3 DE's that can't play LB in a 3-4, WR's that can't catch, etc....) every single season. And, while Elway isn't officially on the team's roster of FO people, Sean Payton basically said that he has an office, and I think he still meddles (his nephew, Patrick Walsh, has been there as pro player director since at least 2017).

Why this ownership didn't show Elway and these people the door two years ago is beyond me. These owners wanted Harbaugh, but he refused because they foolishly wouldn't let him fire this FO and bring in his own people. Now, the Broncos will pay for it.

Because Elway is the franchise? Almost all of the Broncos success can be tied to Elway in one way or another.

[StatKing]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:47 PM, kramxel said:

He's a top notch coach. 

Just the sheer ammount of nutjobs that were functional players under him, and were outed everywhere else... Should tell you everything. 

 

 

Is that not also an indictment against him as a coach? Unless the Steelers are just straight up drafting guys with personality issues on purpose I find it hard to believe he bears no responsibility in them becoming divas. He's the one that allowed them to act like spoiled brats for years on end.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, StatKing said:

Is that not also an indictment against him as a coach? Unless the Steelers are just straight up drafting guys with personality issues on purpose I find it hard to believe he bears no responsibility in them becoming divas. He's the one that allowed them to act like spoiled brats for years on end.

Many of those guys that have had issues had maturity/attitude as a negative on their scouting report. Colbert was a really strict “our board is our board” guys and it did mean taking a guy with personality issues if their skills put them that high.

[El Ramster]

28 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Scared to ask you this because I think you’re one of the only posters wild enough to take the extreme positions* (and I swear to god I mean that as a compliment, believe it or not) but I’m gonna ask you anyway -

Should we judge Belichick only on his Mac Jones /  CLE days?

Andy on his post-McNabb pre-Mahomes days?

Walsh on his non-Montana years?

Noll on his non Bradshaw years?

Shanny on his non-Purdy years? (Lol jk I had to) 
 

* - edit : maybe “good enough to debate the extremes” is a better way to phrase what I mean 

those guys drafted their guys and made established players. Mike has yet to that. He’s had 10+ years to draft Ben’s Bathroomburgers replacement.