Who do you think is the second best player in the league?

[Ozzy]

42 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

I mean... it isn't like Josh Allen has won a Super Bowl. 

Yeah a QB is the most important position in football but it is a team game at the end of the day.  Rodgers only played in one Super Bowl.  Is he no more valuable than Jared Goff?  Brock Purdy?  Joe Flacco?

Don't get me wrong, I do think there is an argument for Allen at that spot.  But being a great QB doesn't automatically propel your team to a Super Bowl.  Just seems silly to hold it against guys like Garrett/Crosby/etc for not winning one and then pound the table for a guy who also hasn't won one and might never.

That is not the point, the point I was trying to make was elite QBs are the #1 reason the past 5 Super Bowl winners have won the Super Bowl.   Mahomes, Mahomes, Stafford, Brady and then Mahomes again.  Go back farther the past 20 Super Bowl winning teams, two did not have an elite QB, Nick Foles being one and the other Joe Flacco but arguably at the time he was absolutely elite especially in the playoff run.

 

It would be great to win a Super Bowl without a big name QB but until that happens yeah it kind of shows what position is most important.  Jared Goff, I would say he is pretty damn good at QB, sure maybe not top 3 but is arguably top 5 to 7.    Purdy, not sure with him based on the ridiculous talent always around him so far in his career.

 

It would be awesome to not have to depend on a superstar QB to win big and win the Super Bowl but fact is you kind of do and huge names in Brady, Mahomes, both Manning brothers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers etc are those big names over the past 20 years.  Would be awesome to not need a guy like that on your roster but results say otherwise.  As for Josh Allen, it does not really matter that he has never won a Super Bowl right now, he is easily the 2nd most talented player in the NFL behind Mahomes based on his ability to throw the football downfield and run from the QB position.  

 

 

[lavar703]

3 hours ago, El Ramster said:

In what way am I wrong? I showed you proof and context. CMC has had one good year and 2 decent ones in his whole 8 year career.’you know this right? He’s headed for that dreaded 30 soon, has battled tons of injuries. Niners have issues with Ayuck and Trent bozo. 
 

I’ll guarantee you that 3-5 guys have better seasons to CMC next year. 
 

Kyren 

Cooks 

Bijan 

Gibbs 

Saquon 

JT 

Kenneth Walker. 
 

Last year was cmc best year in his 8 year career, yapping like he’s the goat rb. Mf, I’ve seen Faulk, Jackson and Gurley. CMC can’t even wipe their sweaty balls with his resume. 

You absolutely proved nothing. You said “this guy is more explosive and that guy is bigger” etc. Nothing numbers-wise to back up anything you said. And then said CMC has had one good year. 
 

Also, I’m 39. I’ve seen all of those backs as well. 

[El Ramster]

2 hours ago, lavar703 said:

You absolutely proved nothing. You said “this guy is more explosive and that guy is bigger” etc. Nothing numbers-wise to back up anything you said. And then said CMC has had one good year. 
 

Also, I’m 39. I’ve seen all of those backs as well. 

Then you know nothing lavar snow. 

[Soko]

3 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Go back farther the past 20 Super Bowl winning teams, two did not have an elite QB, Nick Foles being one and the other Joe Flacco but arguably at the time he was absolutely elite especially in the playoff run.

Hogwash.

Eli Manning wasn’t an elite QB, and if you want to include him because he was playing like an elite QB in that postseason, then you have to knock off Zombie Peyton who threw for a whopping 179 YPG, 2 total TDs, and 2/3 games with under a 75 passer rating. Hell, even 06 Peyton wasn’t playing good football in that postseason (however he was unequivocally an elite QB at the time, unlike in 2015). 

Sophomore Russ was good but absolutely wasn’t an elite quarterback. Not a soul put him in Brady/Rodgers/Peyton/Brees tier. Same with Big Ben. And as great as Stafford is/was - no one was confusing him with Patrick Mahomes.

A lot goes into being a consistent SB contender. Good/great QB play is a big part of that, but being an elite QB is absolutely not a requirement, and the last 20 years demonstrates that.

[Ozzy]

26 minutes ago, Soko said:

Hogwash.

Eli Manning wasn’t an elite QB, and if you want to include him because he was playing like an elite QB in that postseason, then you have to knock off Zombie Peyton who threw for a whopping 179 YPG, 2 total TDs, and 2/3 games with under a 75 passer rating. Hell, even 06 Peyton wasn’t playing good football in that postseason (however he was unequivocally an elite QB at the time, unlike in 2015). 

Sophomore Russ was good but absolutely wasn’t an elite quarterback. Not a soul put him in Brady/Rodgers/Peyton/Brees tier. Same with Big Ben. And as great as Stafford is/was - no one was confusing him with Patrick Mahomes.

A lot goes into being a consistent SB contender. Good/great QB play is a big part of that, but being an elite QB is absolutely not a requirement, and the last 20 years demonstrates that.

Eli Manning only won when it mattered, how dare he.  He only beat Tampa Bay, Dallas and Green Bay on the road in the playoffs to get to the Super Bowl and beat a historically great New England team.  Wow what an awful QB, then the next Super Bowl run beat Green Bay and the 49ers on the road and went up against another great New England team and beat them.  Who really gives a crap about his stats in the regular season when it wins and that is really all that matters.

 

Also who cares about which great QB is greater.  They are all elite QBs at the time they won Super Bowls, oh Big Ben is not as good as Drew Brees, like that even matters or is important?  

 

Not a requirement?  If it was not a requirement to be a elite QB to win the Super Bowl then why have two only done it who were not elite at the time of winning the Super Bowl in 20 years?  Heck really it is only one, because Joe Flacco was standout in the playoff run but sure long term did not hold up to that same level of play.

 

Fact remains if what you said was true then all kinds of teams with average QBs would win the Super Bowl, and they do not.  Mind you with the NFL rule changes it is a lot easier to play QB than before because defense is harder to play than before and the QB has never been protected like they are now.  I wish QB was not as important to NFL success than it is but that is the reality current day.  The days of defensive lead teams with solid run games winning the Super Bowl are pretty much over, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson yeah that is probably never going to happen again.  

 

At least defense does matter and is important but all of those teams that have won especially recently, they all had great QBs and until something changes it will be the same old thing.  So the question of best players, yeah other positions do not really come into play until a team without a great QB wins a Super Bowl with the current rules.  

[Soko]

18 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Eli Manning only won when it mattered, how dare he.  He only beat Tampa Bay, Dallas and Green Bay on the road in the playoffs to get to the Super Bowl and beat a historically great New England team.  Wow what an awful QB, then the next Super Bowl run beat Green Bay and the 49ers on the road and went up against another great New England team and beat them.  Who really gives a crap about his stats in the regular season when it wins and that is really all that matters.

Okay, and I’m fine with calling him that if we’re only looking at his postseason play, then we have to dock Peyton Manning who was mediocre in the majority of his postseason games on the SB runs. You can’t have it both ways. Either we look at the totality of their work (Eli wasn’t elite, Peyton was) or we look at how they played in their runs (Eli was elite, Peyton wasn’t). Hell, Wilson wasn’t an elite QB overall, nor did he play like one in that SB run.

18 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Also who cares about which great QB is greater.  They are all elite QBs at the time they won Super Bowls, oh Big Ben is not as good as Drew Brees, like that even matters or is important?  

What do you think the word “elite” means? You think 1/3 of the starting QBs are elite QBs? 

Foles, Eli, Ben, Stafford, Ben, Russ, and Flacco were not elite QBs. If you want to say a couple of those guys played like elite QBs during the SB runs, then knock off both of Peyton’s runs. 

18 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Not a requirement?  If it was not a requirement to be a elite QB to win the Super Bowl then why have two only done it who were not elite at the time of winning the Super Bowl in 20 years?  Heck really it is only one, because Joe Flacco was standout in the playoff run but sure long term did not hold up to that same level of play.

See above. 

Let’s look at your Joe Flacco example, since you flip flopped on him. Was Joe Flacco an elite QB before 2012? No. Was he during the 2012 regular season? No. Did he play like one during the 2012 postseason? Yes. Did he play like one after the 2012 postseason? No. So what are you actually saying? That you can have any quality QB, as long as they can have a magical SB run, where they take their game to a level that’s never seen again? Then anyone can do it. Baker could do it. Geno could do it. 

All you’re effectively saying is you need a QB to play at a high level in any given postseason run, which will be the opening headline ahead of “water is wet”. You don’t need an elite QB, you need a QB who’ll perform well for 3-4 games in a postseason run (+ a bunch of other stuff). Nick Foles, Eli Manning, and Joe Flacco have all demonstrated this.

18 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Fact remains if what you said was true then all kinds of teams with average QBs would win the Super Bowl, and they do not.  Mind you with the NFL rule changes it is a lot easier to play QB than before because defense is harder to play than before and the QB has never been protected like they are now.  I wish QB was not as important to NFL success than it is but that is the reality current day.  The days of defensive lead teams with solid run games winning the Super Bowl are pretty much over, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson yeah that is probably never going to happen again.  
 

You have no idea how logic works, or you didn’t read what I wrote, based on the bold.

I said you need a QB to play at a high level in the postseason. Who does that? Usually elite QBs. Do only elite QBs do that? No, see Eli and Flacco. Do all elite QBs do that? No, see Lamar and Peyton. 

18 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

At least defense does matter and is important but all of those teams that have won especially recently, they all had great QBs and until something changes it will be the same old thing.  So the question of best players, yeah other positions do not really come into play until a team without a great QB wins a Super Bowl with the current rules.  

You’re 100% correct, when you ignore literal history, what you say is factual.

[lavar703]

1 hour ago, El Ramster said:

Then you know nothing lavar snow. 

Whatever you say dude lol

[iknowcool]

9 hours ago, Ozzy said:

That is not the point, the point I was trying to make was elite QBs are the #1 reason the past 5 Super Bowl winners have won the Super Bowl.   Mahomes, Mahomes, Stafford, Brady and then Mahomes again.  Go back farther the past 20 Super Bowl winning teams, two did not have an elite QB, Nick Foles being one and the other Joe Flacco but arguably at the time he was absolutely elite especially in the playoff run.

And my point was you said Garrett, Jefferson, etc. couldn't be in the discussion for 2nd best player because they haven't won a Super Bowl, but the guy you are pounding the table for also hasn't won a Super Bowl.

Quote

Purdy, not sure with him based on the ridiculous talent always around him so far in his career.

You said you need a great QB to compete for Super Bowls.  Now you are saying you don't know what to do with Purdy because of the talent around him.  Do you need a great QB or not?  And if you do, and the 49ers competed for a Super Bowl last year, then how is Purdy not great?

Quote

It would be great to win a Super Bowl without a big name QB but until that happens yeah it kind of shows what position is most important.

The Broncos won with a washed Peyton Manning.  Eagles won with Foles.  Ravens won with Flacco. Giants won with Eli.  Purdy was just in a Super Bowl.  Goff has been in a Super Bowl (and no way is he close to the top 5 discussion).  49ers made it with Colin Kaepernick.  Matt Stafford is a good QB, but what did he accomplish in Detroit?  Did he happen to become a better QB at age 33, or did he finally play on a team good enough to compete?

The only thing the last 5-10 years has shown us is that Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes are just that damn good.

Edited August 22 by iknowcool

[Soggust]

6 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Eli Manning only won when it mattered, how dare he.  He only beat Tampa Bay, Dallas and Green Bay on the road in the playoffs to get to the Super Bowl and beat a historically great New England team.  Wow what an awful QB, then the next Super Bowl run beat Green Bay and the 49ers on the road and went up against another great New England team and beat them.  

"You need an elite QB to win Super Bowls"

"But Eli wasn't elite"

"Well, he was because he won super bowls".

[El Ramster]

Russ hate is crazy. Dude was unreal in Seattle for 10 years and posted monster stats. Lord knows what happened, but as someone who saw him for his prime! Dude was phenomenal. Better than Luck imo, who seems to be a majestic unicorn anytime his name is brought up. Wilson has a HOF resume don’t get it twisted. Denver just didn’t know how to use him or the elevation affected his ball/play. Dude was unreal his whole Seattle career. 

[El Ramster]

3 hours ago, iknowcool said:

And my point was you said Garrett, Jefferson, etc. couldn't be in the discussion for 2nd best player because they haven't won a Super Bowl, but the guy you are pounding the table for also hasn't won a Super Bowl.

You said you need a great QB to compete for Super Bowls.  Now you are saying you don't know what to do with Purdy because of the talent around him.  Do you need a great QB or not?  And if you do, and the 49ers competed for a Super Bowl last year, then how is Purdy not great?

The Broncos won with a washed Peyton Manning.  Eagles won with Foles.  Ravens won with Flacco. Giants won with Eli.  Purdy was just in a Super Bowl.  Goff has been in a Super Bowl (and no way is he close to the top 5 discussion).  49ers made it with Colin Kaepernick.  Matt Stafford is a good QB, but what did he accomplish in Detroit?  Did he happen to become a better QB at age 33, or did he finally play on a team good enough to compete?

The only thing the last 5-10 years has shown us is that Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes are just that damn good.

Stafford always had HOF talent though. Legit carried us to the Super Bowl. He should have won MVP that year in 21. You couldn’t stop Stafford to Kupp all year. 
 

I also think Purdy is an elite QB. He reminds me so much of young Brady. He can shred and dissect you. I’ve loved him ever since his rookie year. You can just tell he has it. He’s really good and gets no love credit. He’s elevating their play. I think he’s way better than Goff, Lamar, Dak, Love, Hurst and many others. 

Edited August 22 by El Ramster

[Ozzy]

Big Ben is so awful, he is only 5th all time in passing yards, terrible Eli Manning is 10th all time, Matthew Stafford is 11th all time, hell Joe Flacco is 18th all time and Russell Wilson is 19th all time.

 

So all of those guys top 20 all time in passing yards over just the regular season.  Oh what terrible QBs they are and how not elite they all are...what a freaking joke.

 

All outside of probably Joe Flacco should end up being in the Hall of Fame when all is said and done.  How average they all are, when only what 36 guys currently are in the NFL Hall of Fame at the QB position.  

[iknowcool]

6 hours ago, El Ramster said:

Stafford always had HOF talent though. Legit carried us to the Super Bowl. He should have won MVP that year in 21. You couldn’t stop Stafford to Kupp all year. 

And yet, the Lions won nothing with him.  Why is that?  Because it takes a lot more than a QB to win a Super Bowl.  Stafford played a huge role in LA winning a Super Bowl (as any QB naturally does), but they were in the Super Bowl like 2 or 3 years before him.  Lets not act like the Rams weren't a good team.

Edited August 22 by iknowcool

[iknowcool]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Big Ben is so awful, he is only 5th all time in passing yards, terrible Eli Manning is 10th all time, Matthew Stafford is 11th all time, hell Joe Flacco is 18th all time and Russell Wilson is 19th all time.

Nobody called those guys awful or terrible.  You said teams can't win Super Bowls without elite QBs.  We gave you guys who weren't considered elite QBs at the time (and outside of Ben, never were considered elite unless we are just throwing that word around), who won the Super Bowl.  I also gave you another list of QBs who weren't great and still won.  

And bulk passing yards?  Do you think Joe Flacco and Eli Manning are among the 20 best QBs to ever play the game?  Or did they happen to have long careers in a more passer-friendly NFL?  How about lets look at non-volume numbers

Joe Flacco - 61.6%, 3.8 TD%, 2.4 INT%, 84.2 QB Rating, 0 Pro Bowls or All-Pros

Eli Manning - 60.3%, 4.5 TD%, 3.0 INT% (3 seasons with 20+ INTs), 84.1 QB Rating, 4 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pros

I'm not denying the importance of the QB position.  It is the position you need more than anything else.  I just disagree with the idea that playing the position automatically makes you better than those who don't (otherwise, is your entire top 10 player list only QBs?).  And even more so, I disagreed with your reasoning behind it.  You can't punish other players for not leading their teams to a Super Bowl and pound the table for someone who hasn't done that either.  

But this is also why comparing across positions isn't really feasible.  Because you can't compare, say, Joe Burrow to Myles Garrett.  Which is why, if you are going to do it, you have to focus on their accomplishments and where they rank among their peers.  

Edited August 22 by iknowcool

[RaidersAreOne]

Probably CMC.