Justin Jefferson or T.O. Who would you draft?

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Soko said:

Cool. 

How many franchises did Justin Jefferson blow up?

I was comparing TO and Moss in the previous post, it had nothing to do with JJ.

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I mean, he threw public shade at McNabb multiple times. Said the team would be better off with Favre. Basically said he was a warrior in the SB, while McNabb was lacking (has since said McNabb was partying the night before and teammates were lying on McNabb’s behalf). Got into a literal fist fight with a team mate. During his holdout, he was doing live interviews in his driveway. Got suspended by Reid (generally considered a player’s coach), then when given a written statement (apology) by his agent, he omitted the apology part. Got suspended/deactivated again, and cut.

Yeah, like I said, Eagles took advantage of the contract snafu and Owens had little choice but to sign team friendly deal because he though his contract years were voided but the league changed the rules and they weren't. TO wasn't a problem in Philly until they refused to pay him his worth, and he demonstrated he was the best player on the team and balled out in the Super Bowl while McNabb was puking on the field. I'm not sure why working out in the driveway is a big deal.

If McNabb was out drinking the night before the Super Bowl, then he deserves to be criticized, and maybe "players coach" Andy Reid should have held his leaders to a higher standard. Reid seems to be quite gentle in policing alcohol and drug use, as the family of Ariel Young can attest. Based on his post-career actions, I think TO comes out as a more honorable person than McNabb TBH. Multiple DUIs and sexual harassment.

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In Dallas he had issues with Romo. He had issues with Witten. He had issues with Garrett. Believe it was this camp when he had an “accidental” drug overdose. They say Bill didn’t even talk to TO at all, and Jerry, despite loving Owens (surprise surprise) followed the advice of his “many, many” football people and ate a $9M cap hit to cut him.

Jerry signed Owens to a new contract after his first two years with the Cowboys, so obviously he was very happy with him to that point. He also had a legendary defense of Romo ("that's my quarterback") so I think the relationship was more complex than you suggest.

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There’s no way you can remotely equate all of TO’s issues with Justin Jefferson “holding out” by skipping OTAs.

TO paid a huge price for the right of contemporary players like Justin Jefferson to hold out and have zero repercussions. TO played in an era where the front office ruthless hammered players who tried to get paid their worth and outperformed their contract. Now holding out (or "in") is perfectly acceptable.

If JJ was drafted in 1996 and tried to hold out he would have vilified too, although obviously TO was harder to get along with and highly combustible.

[Soko]

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I was comparing TO and Moss in the previous post, it had nothing to do with JJ.

No problem. The post I responded to had zero mention of Moss, and only mentioned Justin Jefferson holding out being held in the same regard as TO. You responded to me, also mentioning only Jefferson and TO, and not Moss, so I thought it was obvious I don’t care about talking about Randy Moss in a Jefferson/TO comparison thread.

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yeah, like I said, Eagles took advantage of the contract snafu and Owens had little choice but to sign team friendly deal because he though his contract years were voided but the league changed the rules and they weren't. TO wasn't a problem in Philly until they refused to pay him his worth, and he demonstrated he was the best player on the team and balled out in the Super Bowl while McNabb was puking on the field. I'm not sure why working out in the driveway is a big deal.

I’m not sure what the deal was with his contract. Owens holding out is like .2% of his issues, so I’m fine with you defending that. How many other players since then have done workout-interview, during training camp hours, while holding out?

Talking crap about your QB on Sports Center in the middle of the season is worse than holding out for a contract. So is fist fighting a teammate.

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

If McNabb was out drinking the night before the Super Bowl, then he deserves to be criticized, and maybe "players coach" Andy Reid should have held his leaders to a higher standard. Reid seems to be quite gentle in policing alcohol and drug use, as the family of Ariel Young can attest. Based on his post-career actions, I think TO comes out as a more honorable person than McNabb TBH. Multiple DUIs and sexual harassment.

I don’t care if McNabb is honorable or not. That has nothing to do with it. Deshaun Watson isn’t honorable and you don’t see Amari Cooper talking about how much better off the Browns would be if they had Patrick Mahomes. You don’t have Nick Chubb fighting team mates just because Watson is a scumbag. Neither absolve the other, but this isn’t a thread about McNabb.

Reid is such a gentle player’s coach, yet still went out of his way to suspend TO for conduct determinants to the team.

You’re completely underplaying what TO did to that Philly’s locker room. 

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Jerry signed Owens to a new contract after his first two years with the Cowboys, so obviously he was very happy with him to that point. He also had a legendary defense of Romo ("that's my quarterback") so I think the relationship was more complex than you suggest.

What did I suggest in regards to complexity? I said they had issues, and they did. TO was so delusional he thought that Romo, Witten, and Garrett game planned in secrecy to exclude him from the offense. 

And yeah, I said Jerry more or less went to bat for TO. The biggest media diva in the history of ownership, go figure. The rest of the team didn’t seem to, though.

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

TO paid a huge price for the right of contemporary players like Justin Jefferson to hold out and have zero repercussions. TO played in an era where the front office ruthless hammered players who tried to get paid their worth and outperformed their contract. Now holding out (or "in") is perfectly acceptable.

Cool. That has nothing to do with the issues he presented in a locker room, so whatever credit you’re attempting to give TO as some sort of trailblazer here is pretty moot.

Like, if I’m adding either him or JJ to my team, do I care about who might do what it takes to get WRs paid in the future? Or do I care about the WR butting heads with the QB, other offensive players, OC, HC, dividing the locker room, fighting team mates, and talking to the media mid-week about how much better the team would be with another QB? I think the latter.

18 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

If JJ was drafted in 1996 and tried to hold out he would have vilified too, although obviously TO was harder to get along with and highly combustible.

Cool. Like I said, TO holding out is about 0.2% of the issues people are referencing when they talk about his problems. Sticking to that point and ignoring the literal fighting he has instigated is…telling.

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, Soko said:

No problem. The post I responded to had zero mention of Moss, and only mentioned Justin Jefferson holding out being held in the same regard as TO. You responded to me, also mentioning only Jefferson and TO, and not Moss, so I thought it was obvious I don’t care about talking about Randy Moss in a Jefferson/TO comparison thread.

I’m not sure what the deal was with his contract. Owens holding out is like .2% of his issues, so I’m fine with you defending that. How many other players since then have done workout-interview, during training camp hours, while holding out?

Talking crap about your QB on Sports Center in the middle of the season is worse than holding out for a contract. So is fist fighting a teammate.

I don’t care if McNabb is honorable or not. That has nothing to do with it. Deshaun Watson isn’t honorable and you don’t see Amari Cooper talking about how much better off the Browns would be if they had Patrick Mahomes. You don’t have Nick Chubb fighting team mates just because Watson is a scumbag. Neither absolve the other, but this isn’t a thread about McNabb.

Reid is such a gentle player’s coach, yet still went out of his way to suspend TO for conduct determinants to the team.

You’re completely underplaying what TO did to that Philly’s locker room. 

What did I suggest in regards to complexity? I said they had issues, and they did. TO was so delusional he thought that Romo, Witten, and Garrett game planned in secrecy to exclude him from the offense. 

And yeah, I said Jerry more or less went to bat for TO. The biggest media diva in the history of ownership, go figure. The rest of the team didn’t seem to, though.

Cool. That has nothing to do with the issues he presented in a locker room, so whatever credit you’re attempting to give TO as some sort of trailblazer here is pretty moot.

Like, if I’m adding either him or JJ to my team, do I care about who might do what it takes to get WRs paid in the future? Or do I care about the WR butting heads with the QB, other offensive players, OC, HC, dividing the locker room, fighting team mates, and talking to the media mid-week about how much better the team would be with another QB? I think the latter.

Cool. Like I said, TO holding out is about 0.2% of the issues people are referencing when they talk about his problems. Sticking to that point and ignoring the literal fighting he has instigated is…telling.

I hated TO as much as anybody. He was traded to the Ravens and got the trade rescinded and then scored a TD on us in an Eagles win and did the Ray Lewis dance in the endzone. Will never forget. 

But I just think a lot of the things that he did that people considered outrageous in retrospect were not that bad. Teammates fighting is not that uncommon (Steve Smith, Aqib Talib, etc.). Super religious guys like Jeff Garcia sometimes confuse people but he did fine for himself, he married a playmate. It turns out Donovan McNabb was kind of a ****** and alky. The Cowboys management is a mess and unprofessional, and Jerrah is persuadable and scapegoated TO. I've still yet to receive an adequate explanation why working out in your driveway is bad.

I'm fine with choosing JJ over TO, I just find TO unfairly maligned.

TO should also receive credit as the greatest TD celebrator ever. The variety and notoriety of the celebrations really can't be matched. 

[El Ramster]

There’s no world in which JJ is better than To. 

[JetsandI]

I would draft Justin Jefferson out of college.

I would draft JJ basing on Pro Level statistic.

I will draft JJ for a Hall of Fame dynasty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21 by JetsandI

[Sugashane]

TO produced with QBs and systems that were less advanced and with defenses that were allowed to be far more physical. Prime TO, Moss, Rice would be disgusting in today's game.

Owens is a pain in the ***. Still voted for him though.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

On 8/19/2024 at 5:18 AM, nagahide13 said:

I'd take JJ pretty easily. I wouldn't even question it.

Compare the first 4 years of their careers;

TO- 3307 yards, 30 TDs, 9.075 y/tgt
JJ- 5899 yards, 30 TDs, 10.35 y/tgt

This is without mentioning the high number of drops that TO consistently had throughout his career. This is also without mentioning his character or how many teams he forced his way off of. These days I love me some TO. But he was a complete headache as a "star" player.

This question is pretty easy. I'll take the better player with a better head on his shoulders. JJ isn't the same athlete as TO but he's just more talented and a better overall player.

And no, TO is not the 2nd best receiver all time. He has the bulk stats to argue for it, but anyone that puts TO over Moss is just... wrong IMO.

As far as the stat comparison goes, it really deserves some context. Owens really wasn't the number #1 receiver for a few years due to the presence of Jerry Rice understandably. No one would be. Teams also ran the ball way more back then in the mid to late 90's. Owens didn't have the targets really. I just looked up Justin Jefferson's targets, and he had 184 in 2022. That's more than Rice himself ever had at any point in his career. 

[nagahide13]

6 hours ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

As far as the stat comparison goes, it really deserves some context. Owens really wasn't the number #1 receiver for a few years due to the presence of Jerry Rice understandably. No one would be. Teams also ran the ball way more back then in the mid to late 90's. Owens didn't have the targets really. I just looked up Justin Jefferson's targets, and he had 184 in 2022. That's more than Rice himself ever had at any point in his career. 

# of targets is why I specifically listed y/tgt as a stat. It should decrease with increased targets but this case does not. JJ obviously has more volume but he's also more efficient in metrics that are specifically trying not to be dependent on other players.

Edited August 31 by nagahide13

[TecmoSuperJoe]

2 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

# of targets is why I specifically listed y/tgt as a stat. It should decrease with increased targets but this case does not. JJ obviously has more volume but he's also more efficient in metrics that are specifically trying not to be dependent on other players.

It's also a lot easier to pase the rock between the two eras. Jefferson has that advantage. I'm just saying comparing the two players, and using bulk stats within the first four seasons of their career deserves context. Personally in this case I'd just forget the stats even if they played in the same era. Eye test shows how they play the game, and they each dominate in their unique way. Honestly can't go wrong with either. Might slight Owens since he dominated in TDs, but it's a close shave.

Edited August 31 by TecmoSuperJoe

[Jeezla]

I would need to see JJ play in TO's era, when DB's could get really physical, to answer this question.

Actually, never mind, since the question isn't "Who better?". I take JJ since TO would probably get on my nerves or force a trade.

Edited August 31 by Jeezla

[SodeeWater_Cheezburger]

On 8/19/2024 at 5:17 PM, Soko said:

Reid is such a gentle player’s coach, yet still went out of his way to suspend TO for conduct determinants to the team.

 

That may be true, but he's not above stealing the occasional nuggie from his all-world quarterback!