skibrett15 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: How many teams put their snap leaders on ST? How many reps did Watson have in 2022? Was Doubs on ST this year? Your argument here is so pointless. Lazard is a 6'5 230 dude who runs in the 4.5's, if he's asked to play specials, he'd be on specials lol, we're not talking about a Tavon Austin sized dude here. So because his coaches haven't asked him to play ST, that's his fault? He's never played STs more than offense. I think he had one season where he was on like 1 unit in 2019 maybe? He's a 6-5 guy who doesn't use an inch over 6-0 of his height when not blocking. So he's just a 6-0 4.55 guy who doesn't really do much for ya when you're trying to pass him the ball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, hitnhope said: Sometimes the eye test is needed in addition to the analytics. When you have a WR that is slow, with average hands the eye test tells you that maybe the efficiency is due to other factors like having the best WR in football lined up opposite. The QB's efficiency drop may also be due to the limitations in the weapons around him. Did Mahomes get worse this year? Did Rodgers get worse or was the problem that he had a plow horse lead WR and a plow horse lead TE as targets? 4.55 at 228 is not slow. Lazard is an 86% athlete at the WR position. Better than Davante Adams, James Jones and Jordy Nelson, same percentile at Greg Jennings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, skibrett15 said: He's never played STs more than offense. I think he had one season where he was on like 1 unit in 2019 maybe? He's a 6-5 guy who doesn't use an inch over 6-0 of his height when not blocking. So he's just a 6-0 4.55 guy who doesn't really do much for ya when you're trying to pass him the ball. It's hard to respond to this because we're just arbitrarily decreasing his height, what?? Lol. I'm done with the Lazard on ST argument, he would've been just fine if asked to play them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: 4.55 at 228 is not slow. Lazard is an 86% athlete at the WR position. Better than Davante Adams, James Jones and Jordy Nelson, same percentile at Greg Jennings. Do you honestly believe that Lazard is a better athlete than Adams, Jordy, or Jennings? He is not close to them when you look at playing speed and quickness. Lazard is slow if you are looking at him as a top receiver. How about 3 cone times? Jennings 5 tenths quicker. Adams 3 tenths quicker. Lazard is 2 tenths slower than Clay Matthews in the 3 cone. Edited January 12 by hitnhope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: It's hard to respond to this because we're just arbitrarily decreasing his height, what?? Lol. I'm done with the Lazard on ST argument, he would've been just fine if asked to play them. He's not arbitrarily decreasing it.. He's saying Lazard doesn't take advantage of his size as a pass catcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, incognito_man said: He's not arbitrarily decreasing it.. He's saying Lazard doesn't take advantage of his size as a pass catcher Which is an opinion first of all. Second, Lazard's greatest strength in the league is his physicality in the run/screen game, which coincides with FG/KR/PR and would be very similar to block shedding in the KO/punt game. His argument is entirely arbitrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 28 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: What trait does he not possess to play specials lol. HE didn't play specials because he's a 12m AAV player, how many of those guys play ST ? 2019. Lazard had 179 special teams snaps in GB. 35 catches on offense. 555 snaps on offense. 2020. Lazard had 10 special teams snaps in GB. 33 catches on offense. 582 snaps on offense. 2021. Lazard had 23 special teams snaps in GB. 40 catches on offense. 767 snaps on offense. 2022. Lazard had 3 special teams snaps in GB. 60 catches on offense. 863 snaps on offense. Looks like he was playing specials before he was needed more on offense to me. It isn't like he can't. It's that he's more valuable to the offense to have him, so why risk the injuries on special teams. Though one year I remember him asking to go in there because our coverage units were just that bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 6 minutes ago, hitnhope said: Do you honestly believe that Lazard is a better athlete than Adams, Jordy, or Jennings? He is not close to them when you look at playing speed and quickness. Lazard is slow if you are looking at him as a top receiver. How about 3 cone times? Jennings 5 tenths quicker. Adams 3 tenths quicker. Lazard is 2 tenths slower than Clay Matthews in the 3 cone. You're just admitting here that he didn't "look" fast to you and ignoring the actual data that says he is fast, especially when taken into account his size. He's also 74th percentile for explosion and 81st in strength. He's not agile, but that is only one aspect of athletic testing. He's 86th percentile as the total package, so yes he is a better complete athlete than the guys I listed and that really can't be argued. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Fun fact, Malik Health's full name is..... Malik Shazass Heath. Just based on that middle name, I'll take him over Allen Jamel Lazard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, Packerraymond said: You're just admitting here that he didn't "look" fast to you and ignoring the actual data that says he is fast, especially when taken into account his size. He's also 74th percentile for explosion and 81st in strength. He's not agile, but that is only one aspect of athletic testing. He's 86th percentile as the total package, so yes he is a better complete athlete than the guys I listed and that really can't be argued. Are we talking about playing him at the athlete position or as a starting WR position in the NFL? Is Alan Lazard a top 50% player in speed and quickness at the WR position? Yes, in the span of human population Lazard is "fast". When looking for a Starting WR threat in the NFL he simply is not. 4.55 is not "fast for a WR". Over a 7.1 three cone drill is slow for a starting WR. Couple the two together and what you have is a bottom roster WR and special teams player. You must have searched long and hard to find a random stat like that from 3 years ago to try and make your point. I'll give you an A for effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, hitnhope said: Are we talking about playing him at the athlete position or as a starting WR position in the NFL? Is Alan Lazard a top 50% player in speed and quickness at the WR position? Yes, in the span of human population Lazard is "fast". When looking for a Starting WR threat in the NFL he simply is not. 4.55 is not "fast for a WR". Over a 7.1 three cone drill is slow for a starting WR. Couple the two together and what you have is a bottom roster WR and special teams player. You must have searched long and hard to find a random stat like that from 3 years ago to try and make your point. I'll give you an A for effort. 4.55 is great for a 6'5 228 pound NFL receiver. If you aren't willing to take size into account and the advantage it provides any player, there's really no point in arguing with you as that should just be common knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 In the NFL, it behooves one to look at the most recent data because the average career is just a few years, one season is HUGE. Lazard got benched. By the Jets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibrett15 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 nobody is arguing that lazard WAS a bad player in 2020/2021. Plenty of us were arguing with you that he wasn't Mike Evans, that he was a WR3 and capped at that. He's clearly NOW lost it completely and even in 2021 was supremely overrated as a threatening pass catcher. He was open because he played on the packers with rodgers opposite adams. Then in 2022 was asked to do more, and couldn't, and also got hurt. He doesn't get open, even against average CBs with enough consistency to be a player you want on the field. He should switch his position to TE, add 15 lbs, and should have done so in 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, Packerraymond said: 4.55 is great for a 6'5 228 pound NFL receiver. If you aren't willing to take size into account and the advantage it provides any player, there's really no point in arguing with you as that should just be common knowledge. Where was the contested catch advantage? It was helpful to him as a blocker. It wasn't helpful to him as a starting WR. You did not see Mike Evans type plays from him. Randy Moss type plays. Lazard was and always will be a good blocker and low-level receiver. He has his place, just not as the leading threat as a WR in the NFL. Is that hard to admit? The proof is in the results. He has flamed out as a receiving threat. Mainly because he was too slow, lacked the quickness, and didn't have the type of hands to win contested catches in game. I understand that some were fooled by the other "advanced stats" and measurables, but you certainly shouldn't be fooled anymore. Why we would have this discussion again in 2024 is really surprising. People can't admit they were wrong even after the results for 3 years prove it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 There we go again with exaggeration, no one on this board once mentioned Mike Evans as a comp, as now two posters above have used, as statement that invalidates your entire argument. I remember the debates very well, everyone pro Lazard was happy he was going to see more opportunities in 2022, because the analytics pointed to him deserving them. Simple as that. HE produced an average WR season, with a QB that went into a shell and refused to throw anything over the middle of the field or contested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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