playmaker8267 Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 I'm trying to be objective about this, and I still come to the conclusion that Manny at 22% is ludicrous. Yes, he failed tests. Does that mean people who are already in the HoF didn't use steroids? If you cheated, you cheated. Put the greats and only the greats in. Bonds, Clemens, and Ramirez should all be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 57 minutes ago, Forge said: No, I'm not going to say that until his time is up on the ballot. I wouldn't doubt that there are some voters who are purposely leaving him off the ballot until his very last try in some sort of trite revenge. Same for Clemens. Plus, in the remaining years left, some voters will drop off and new ones will come up, so there are too many moving parts for me to say that definitively. This year was a really bad showing though to go backward. Not a great sign. Even if the writers don't vote them in, they will eventually get in, once the old farts die off and our generation stops going to the Hall of Fame because the players we care about were unfairly excluded. They'll create some committee and these guys will get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, playmaker8267 said: I'm trying to be objective about this, and I still come to the conclusion that Manny at 22% is ludicrous. Yes, he failed tests. Does that mean people who are already in the HoF didn't use steroids? If you cheated, you cheated. Put the greats and only the greats in. Bonds, Clemens, and Ramirez should all be in. Nobody whose team had to pitch to Manny Ramirez could ever say with a straight face that guy isn't a HoFer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 20 minutes ago, playmaker8267 said: I'm trying to be objective about this, and I still come to the conclusion that Manny at 22% is ludicrous. Yes, he failed tests. Does that mean people who are already in the HoF didn't use steroids? If you cheated, you cheated. Put the greats and only the greats in. Bonds, Clemens, and Ramirez should all be in. To my knowledge, Barry Bonds has never tested positive for steroids or other PEDs. I may be wrong on that, so correct me if I am. If he never tested positive then he's being kept out of the HoF because of an assumption that the overwhelming majority of people have. Also, I agree with your point. Either keep everyone out or put the players in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, showtime said: To my knowledge, Barry Bonds has never tested positive for steroids or other PEDs. I may be wrong on that, so correct me if I am. If he never tested positive then he's being kept out of the HoF because of an assumption that the overwhelming majority of people have. Also, I agree with your point. Either keep everyone out or put the players in. He never tested positive but he basically admitted to some of the BALCO stuff iirc. Said he thought it was for something else, not steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devils1854 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Dont worry Jack Morris got in. Proves that all you got to be is liked and somewhat good at baseball and wait your turn quietly, and you'll get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, mission27 said: He never tested positive but he basically admitted to some of the BALCO stuff iirc. Said he thought it was for something else, not steroids. Thanks. I just think that there needs to be a consensus way to handle all of these players. How can people penalize some players and then give other players a pass? Derek Jeter is one of the best players from that same era and I've never heard anyone say he used PED's of any kind, but how can we be sure? Apparently never testing positive is not enough proof. If what Alex Rodriguez said was true after he got caught where he had gotten a serious neck injury and thought to himself that he was going to quit using steroids, then I don't think he would have been penalized or viewed how he is right now - and this guy legit used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devils1854 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Current MLB Pitchers with 40+ WAR vs Jack Morris WAR 65.3-CC Sabathia 58.0-Clayton Kershaw 56.9-Justin Verlander55.8-Jack Morris 53.2-Zack Greinke 51.5-Felix Hernandez 45.6-Cole Hamels 43.7-Max Scherzer 41.6-Jon Lester IP 3824-Jack Morris 3317-CC Sabathia 2545-Justin Verlander 2502-Felix Hernandez 2455-Zack Grienke 2362-Cole Hamels 2184-Jon Lester 1935-Clayton Kershaw 1897-Max Scherzer ERA 2.36-Clayton Kershaw 3.20-Felix Hernandez 3.30-Max Scherzer 3.37-Cole Hamels 3.40-Zack Greinke 3.46-Justin Verlander 3.51-Jon Lester 3.70-CC Sabathia3.90-Jack Morris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDez Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, NewAge said: Bonds and Clemens both went up. They were at like 53 last year. Jamie Moyer getting the same number of votes as Johan Santana is absurd. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2010&month=0&season1=2004&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players= Maybe he would've had 3-4 extra years of 2-3 WAR seasons had the Mets not ruined him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewAge Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, DirtyDez said: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2010&month=0&season1=2004&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players= Maybe he would've had 3-4 extra years of 2-3 WAR seasons had the Mets not ruined him. Not sure if the onus necessarily falls on the Mets there but yes. After Pedro and before Kershaw, you had Santana and Halladay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, NewAge said: Bonds and Clemens both went up. They were at like 53 last year. Jamie Moyer getting the same number of votes as Johan Santana is absurd. Thanks for the correction, you are right. I don't know why i had it in my head they were both at 60 last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewAge Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Forge said: Thanks for the correction, you are right. I don't know why i had it in my head they were both at 60 last year That's probably where they were pre-release. The private and post-release ballots are always worse for them (and everyone who isn't a reliever or bad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 33 minutes ago, NewAge said: Not sure if the onus necessarily falls on the Mets there but yes. After Pedro and before Kershaw, you had Santana and Halladay. Its crazy to me that people see Halladay as a lock and Santana is off the ballot. Santana was the 'best pitcher in baseball' from 2004-2008... aka most of Halladay's prime... in the same league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewAge Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 minute ago, mission27 said: Its crazy to me that people see Halladay as a lock and Santana is off the ballot. Santana was the 'best pitcher in baseball' from 2004-2008... aka most of Halladay's prime... in the same league. At the very least, Johan should be more than a one and done who gets the same number of votes as Jamie Flea Moyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mission27 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Just now, NewAge said: At the very least, Johan should be more than a one and done who gets the same number of votes as Jamie Flea Moyer. Its because there's such a big backlog because of bad voters. Guys like Bonds and Clemens should have been easy 1st ballots and made room to discuss other candidates in later years. Instead you have them clogging up the bases and even good voters can't really put Johan on their ballots because there are too many other more deserving candidates who they'd have to leave off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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