3-4 or 4-3

[3rivers]

with the existing roster, what do you think the team's best option is?

[43M]

Does it matter?   Teams only run their base defense like what, 30% of the time?    Rest of the time its subpackages.

I prefer the 3-4, but Ill take whatever works.   As long as Butler is here (which he 99.9% will be back next year), we will be 3-4.     If we went with another coach, I dont care what we run, as long as its run efficiently.    Both defenses can be elite, but you need the right players.   We dont have the talent to be elite in any defense.      Our secondary will be a liability in any system.  Bud Dupree will be a liability in any system.   Vince Williams will be a liability in any system.   

Bottom line....this wont be a one year fix....regardless of coordinator of scheme, and even if we have a good draft, our defense will still be a liability next year.   Best we can hope for is that it can be improved enough that it can make some plays to support our HOPEFULLY elite offense.    

[jebrick]

The Steelers are stubborn and conservative.  They have 30+ years doing a 3-4 and they are not going to retrain/hire different scouts.

That being said, with one small adjustment, they can go to a hybrid defense.  They have to do something because what they have no is not working.

[3rivers]

37 minutes ago, jebrick said:

The Steelers are stubborn and conservative.  They have 30+ years doing a 3-4 and they are not going to retrain/hire different scouts.

That being said, with one small adjustment, they can go to a hybrid defense.  They have to do something because what they have no is not working.

With the team having more 4-3 type DT's and less good 3-4 OLB's being the reason I posted this,  your hybrid could be a way to test the waters for the 4-3 and of course what they are doing isn't working vs good teams.  Right now Watt is our only legit 3-4 OLB and he isn't Harrison/Woodley calibre as of now but he had a good season as a rook. Nobody on the opposite side and no legit depth. Chickillo stays and has effort and a chance but as of now isn't a back up that I could see being starter in the league of the aforementioned. 

[jebrick]

THere are zero 4-3 De on the team.  there are zero 4-3 NT on the team.  There are zero 4-3 ILB on the team.  THere are zero scouts or coaches who are looking for or even know what they want in a 4-3.  So there is zero change that a team that still thinks it can contend for a SB will switch.

Heyward would be a passable UT.  Tuitt would be a piss poor LDE.  Hargrave would be a backup UT.  Williams has no place as a 4-3 LB.  Dupree would be a jag 9 tech RDE.  It is not an easy switch

[warfelg]

54 minutes ago, jebrick said:

THere are zero 4-3 De on the team.  there are zero 4-3 NT on the team.  There are zero 4-3 ILB on the team.  THere are zero scouts or coaches who are looking for or even know what they want in a 4-3.  So there is zero change that a team that still thinks it can contend for a SB will switch.

Heyward would be a passable UT.  Tuitt would be a piss poor LDE.  Hargrave would be a backup UT.  Williams has no place as a 4-3 LB.  Dupree would be a jag 9 tech RDE.  It is not an easy switch

If, if, we made this change:

Heyward would play RDE and kick into UT on pass downs.  Think how Seattle uses Michael Bennett.  On base downs he's the DE, on rush downs he kicks inside.

Hargrave could play run down UT, pass down NT.

We have no run down NT.  Tuitt has no position.

Dupree could play SAM/Rush, but that's exactly what TJ Watt was in college so the transition might be more difficult for him.  Maybe Dupree could be that every down LDE.

 

Basically how I see it:

BASE - 

Dupree - NT - Hargrave - Heyward

    WILL - MIKE - Watt

NICKLE -

Dupree - Hargrave - Heyward - Watt

                 WILL - MIKE

A LB/SS combo could hop in the box to play as a 3rd LB if they go into a run package without subbing.

[Steeler Hitman]

Good comments here. Here is my two cents worth.  The problem is not the scheme, but rather the lack of talent and some of the poor drafts and free agent signings.  The main reason the Steelers lost to Jacksonville was they got dominated in the trenches. I do not hear anyone talking about that, but our defense gave up 28 of Jacksonville's 45 points.  They could not stop the running game, they could not get to Blake Bortles, and they did not force any turnovers.

Surprised? While I didn't expect an elite effort from our defense, I did not expect what happened. I thought that they would be able to put eight in the box and stop the run. I also thought that they would have been able to get pressure on and sack Blake Bortles. Our problems on defense are not new. The second half of the season we have seen our pass defense get exposed and we have never been consistent at stopping the run all season.  I have to admit that I was wrong about resigning Lawrence Timmons for a season.  We missed him dearly and were very soft in the middle of the defense all season. Certainly the unfortunate injury to Ryan Shazier further hurt the overall defense.

I think the Steelers can fix this by adding a key free agent or two and drafting for the future.  While the defense looked bad at times and played over their heads early, there are a few reasons for optimism as well. Some things need to fall into place for that to happen.

1. Hargraves regressed somewhat and got exposed in the running game. He is not a true NG, and would have benefited from playing DT in a hybrid 4-3 scheme.  The problem is the Steelers have DE's trying to play in the middle and DT's trying to play NG.  While the game has evolved into more of a passing league, you still have to be able to stop the run, especially in January and February. Draft or sign a run stuffing DT/NG.  Hargraves is not and never will be a true NG.  However, he can be effective in our defense as he has flashed at times with getting pressure up the middle.  Let him rotate in with a strong DT/NG type.  That will help us be more stout in the middle and give the defense the ability to go big hybrid or nickel with Hargraves, DT, Tuitt and Heyward . 

2. We will need to draft a MLB and possibly sign a moderate free agent.  I pray that Ryan Shazier will get healthy again and I pray that it is God's will that he can fulfill his dream and not only walk, but be strong, and healthy enough to play again. I don't know if that could happen in 2018. I continue to have faith and Shalieve! We must prepare for him not being available in 2018.

I would love to have a veteran guy like Navarro Bowman despite his limited speed. He is a leader and would do wonders for our run defense. Dirty Red will be back with Williams and Fort, but upgrades are needed here because all are limited. I have always liked the Falcons Sean Witherspoon, but he has had problems staying healthy his entire career.  He could be a low to moderate priced free agent who could come in and fill in our our defense while our rookie draft pick develops. Maybe a change of scenery helps him. He isn't as fast and athletic as he once was, but he is still quicker than anyone else on the current roster. Again, someone like this who may help.

3. Our safety play is below average.  Mike Mitchell has not been what we had hoped since signing him.  The desire for Mitchell being an athletic replacement for Ryan Clark has never happened. He doesn't have Clark's instincts and ability to be in the proper position to make plays. While Mitchell is far more athletic and faster than Clark, he doesn't have his savvy and instincts.  We need an upgrade here.  Finding good safeties in the draft is hard. The position does not put out an Earl Thomas or Eric Berry every year, let alone every five or ten years. Do you gamble on paying another athletic  guy in free agency like Eric Reid?  I am a Sean Davis fan and he regressed from he flashes of potential that he showed in his rookie year.  I am not ready to give up on him in his third year, but more talent is needed there. Which also leads me to seriously question  the coaching of one of my favorite players in Carnell Lake. You have to have talent to develop, but I look at OL coach Munchack who has developed solid back-ups like Chris Hubbard, BJ Finney and Matt Fieler.  Why isn't this being done at CB and safety?

4. It is time to look at our position coaches.

I loved Carnell Lake the player, but I am not so happy with him as a coach as stated above.  I think we can use an influx of new ideas and coaching talent here.  I would like to see a new CB coach and then add a Safety Coach as the Steelers have an ILB and OLB coach.  Davis and Burns are athletic and should excel in pass coverage and blitzing. Burns is a below average tackler and Davis is an average tackler at best as a SS. What are we doing to help bring the most out of two players that were heavily counted on to bolster the secondary. Again, they started out well, but teams seemed to find a clink in the armor and we did not adjust. Coach Lake has not

5. We did get a lot of sacks.  However, our defense regressed instead of improving as the year went on. There were also times that our pass rush was nearly non-existent as in the play-off loss to Jacksonville. There is talent with Dupree and Watt.  While many are ready to write off Dupree, I think he still has upside. I do not believe that he was used properly. A fact that Dupree will own is that he got little pressure or sacks in his limited opportunities to show that he should be attacking the QB more.  I like Coach J-Peezy, but I wonder if there is a better teacher out there and I would strongly consider replacing him. 

Coach Jerry O gets a pass because he did the best he could with limited talent. Losing Shazier was a crusher and then losing Dirty Red hurt as a potential signal caller and third best ILB hurt. Williams played as expected and exceeded expectations as a blitzer.  LJ Fort is an intriguing player who made a few plays and missed on some more. Tackling is my biggest criticism of the ILB’ers as a group. Even Shazier’s tackling was iffy at times. However, give Coach Jerry O some more talent and I think he coaches them up well.

[MOSteelers56]

Our defense was plagued by the same thing the last two years. We get sacks but not enough pressures. Our defense is not consistent at all. We get sacks in bunches but no consistent pressure. That is why our secondary gets picked apart. I truly believe our secondary is good enough to win a championship with an adequate pass rush in front of it. 

[Steeler Hitman]

14 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Our defense was plagued by the same thing the last two years. We get sacks but not enough pressures. Our defense is not consistent at all. We get sacks in bunches but no consistent pressure. That is why our secondary gets picked apart. I truly believe our secondary is good enough to win a championship with an adequate pass rush in front of it. 

Very interesting comments. I agree with what you said about sacks and pressure. Early in the year, I thought the defense did a great job of getting constant pressure on teams. Against the Vikings, they harassed Case Keenum with pressure from our front four without blitzing. Somehow that  changed. That is something that I would like to see change. In thinking about your comments I originally believed the opposite, that we have better pass rushers than secondary talent. However, in looking again, I agree with your assertation that there is more talent in the secondary than at OLB/Edge.

Davis at strong safety and Burns, Sutton, Hilton, and Allen have potential to be the makings of a decent secondary, but there is no center-fielder at FS and I have grown tired of the Mike Mitchell experience from a production standpoint. Joe Haden's play tailed off some at the end of the year.  Maybe that was due to rust from injury, lack of adequate coaching or just getting beat.

While we can use more depth, I think Dupree and Watt can be more than decent at OLB.  Chickello could be a solid situation pass rusher/blitzer and the team can sin or draft a forth OLB/Edge guy to round out the team. While the numbers may not be the same, but purely from a talent standpoint, the OLB/Edge guys are better than the secondary guys. I think both groups need some better coaching to help take them to the next level.

I do not believe that our current secondary alone is good enough to win a championship though. We are missing some safety help (a starting caliber FS and solid depth).  Why was JJ Wilcox not given a chance to help in run support or even the passing support after the Bears game?

[3rivers]

2 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Our defense was plagued by the same thing the last two years. We get sacks but not enough pressures. Our defense is not consistent at all. We get sacks in bunches but no consistent pressure. That is why our secondary gets picked apart. I truly believe our secondary is good enough to win a championship with an adequate pass rush in front of it. 

maybe as a result of the weak schedule too.  Sacks are a stat that needs to be corrected based on the opponents.  Who cares if you get  sacks vs the colts or browns, what happened vs the pats or Jags?

Secondary can only hold up for so long, and the better teams have more accurate QB's and or good OL's. Jags have a good OL and against use Bortles Jags looked like the 89 49ers but without HOF QB, and the GOAT. 

Agree about the pass rush, but how will they address this? Dupree has had 3 years  and shown no improvement. Will they sign a good UFA or draft high. If they draft high, will not be another jarvis or dupree?