Montana on Brady's longevity

[JAF-N72EX]

15 hours ago, MathMan said:

I watched Joe Montana's highlights on youtube for like 15 minutes, and it always seems like he's throwing to wide open guys.

He doesn't throw from pockets either.

5 hours ago, Non-Issue said:

Highlights tend to be big plays. Big plays tend to happen when guys are wide open.

Show me a highlight reel of any QB. It won’t be showing you the 3 yard dump threading the needle with hands in his face to convert a 3rd down on his own 35. It’s going to be some long bomb over the top to a single covered receiver with a step on the corner. That’s how highlight reels work.

Trust me, if Montana was throwing to wide open guys, his numbers would be a lot more grand.

You're missing the point Non-Issue. Montana didn't throw to WR's who were covered. 

[3rivers]

On 2018-04-17 at 8:20 AM, TheChancellor said:

This is not controversial. With the technological and medical advancements in the last 20-30 years professional athletes have been able to recover faster as well as knowing exactly what they need to do to and how to do it in order to maintain optimal performance and fitness week in, week out.

ACL alone could have been career ending 30 years ago.  They started getting better around then, but at one time such knee injuries spelled the end of the career.

[LaserFocus]

On 5/6/2018 at 5:47 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

He doesn't throw from pockets either.

You're missing the point Non-Issue. Montana didn't throw to WR's who were covered. 

I saw Montana's career dating back to his Notre Dame days, he could kill you throwing from the pocket, and completed plenty of throws in tight windows. Highlight videos show big plays, and many big plays happen during blown coverages with receivers wide open. 

[JAF-N72EX]

9 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

I saw Montana's career dating back to his Notre Dame days, he could kill you throwing from the pocket, and completed plenty of throws in tight windows. Highlight videos show big plays, and many big plays happen during blown coverages with receivers wide open. 

I was told that throwing to open receivers is seen as a flaw.

[NFLExpert49]

Montana used to dive to the ground when he saw sacks coming. I've never seen anyone mention that. And even with that, he was extremely injury prone.

His status as a great is so inflated it's ridiculous. You would think he got the Michael Jordan marketing.

Nobody seems to realize that Bill Walsh didn't think nearly as highly of Montana as everyone else. Walsh not only had other QBs rated ahead of him in the 1979 draft (including Steve Dils), but he really wanted Steve Young to take the starting job from him in 1987 and 1988. The supposed "GOAT" spent much of the second half of his 49er career mired in QB controversy. And I'm sure people will retroactively go, "but it was Steve Young," but Steve Young was not Steve Young in those days. Steve Young was a bust from Tampa Bay, turned into a project. 

Walsh was eager to replace Montana, but Young hadn't mastered the offense yet. If Montana's time as the 49ers' starting QB ends at that point, nobody is mentioning him as an all-time great.

Montana's status is based more on emotion and charisma than substance. He built a legacy largely out of game winning drives that shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Why is his team - with a loaded offense - losing 16-13 late in the 4th quarter to the Bengals when he's facing a mediocre defense that had lost its best player (Krumrie)? What about the 3 INTs in the 81-82 NFC Championship game that set up the need for that game winning drive and "The Catch?"

And here were the points allowed in all 3 postseason games combined for the 84, 88, and 89 seasons: 26, 28, 26. They never allowed more than 16 points in a postseason game in those 3 Super Bowl runs. I like my odds of winning the Super Bowl that way with at least 50 QBs. 

For me, Montana was a good, not great quarterback. Good mobility, good on rollouts, very nice touch on the shorter throws, and could drop a rainbow deep pass right in the bucket every now and then. 

But he was too programmed. If the opponent had the right game plan that day, he couldn't make something happen. The offense would be completely anemic. There was no real urgency with him. 

Steve Young, on the other hand, would fight to the death to get something going...ad-lib, scramble, defy the coaches and try another target. Brett Favre would ad-lib, defy the coaches, try another target. 

There's an entertaining video on Youtube where Young and Favre chatted on stage, and at one point, Young mentions that the biggest thing he learned from Favre is that you have to be an "artist" in the red zone, because, "if you do what the coaches tell you, you kick a field goal." Montana was that guy who did what the coaches told him. 

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Montana used to dive to the ground when he saw sacks coming. I've never seen anyone mention that. And even with that, he was extremely injury prone.

His status as a great is so inflated it's ridiculous. You would think he got the Michael Jordan marketing.

Nobody seems to realize that Bill Walsh didn't think nearly as highly of Montana as everyone else. Walsh not only had other QBs rated ahead of him in the 1979 draft (including Steve Dils), but he really wanted Steve Young to take the starting job from him in 1987 and 1988. The supposed "GOAT" spent much of the second half of his 49er career mired in QB controversy. And I'm sure people will retroactively go, "but it was Steve Young," but Steve Young was not Steve Young in those days. Steve Young was a bust from Tampa Bay, turned into a project. 

Walsh was eager to replace Montana, but Young hadn't mastered the offense yet. If Montana's time as the 49ers' starting QB ends at that point, nobody is mentioning him as an all-time great.

Montana's status is based more on emotion and charisma than substance. He built a legacy largely out of game winning drives that shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Why is his team - with a loaded offense - losing 16-13 late in the 4th quarter to the Bengals when he's facing a mediocre defense that had lost its best player (Krumrie)? What about the 3 INTs in the 81-82 NFC Championship game that set up the need for that game winning drive and "The Catch?"

And here were the points allowed in all 3 postseason games combined for the 84, 88, and 89 seasons: 26, 28, 26. They never allowed more than 16 points in a postseason game in those 3 Super Bowl runs. I like my odds of winning the Super Bowl that way with at least 50 QBs. 

For me, Montana was a good, not great quarterback. Good mobility, good on rollouts, very nice touch on the shorter throws, and could drop a rainbow deep pass right in the bucket every now and then. 

But he was too programmed. If the opponent had the right game plan that day, he couldn't make something happen. The offense would be completely anemic. There was no real urgency with him. 

Steve Young, on the other hand, would fight to the death to get something going...ad-lib, scramble, defy the coaches and try another target. Brett Favre would ad-lib, defy the coaches, try another target. 

There's an entertaining video on Youtube where Young and Favre chatted on stage, and at one point, Young mentions that the biggest thing he learned from Favre is that you have to be an "artist" in the red zone, because, "if you do what the coaches tell you, you kick a field goal." Montana was that guy who did what the coaches told him. 

It’s kind of funny but for all the “Brady had Belichick and he’s a system QB”, Montana had Walsh install a system that was so far ahead of its time that it was a premier NFL style offense years after both were out of the league, easily considered the best coach of the 80’s, and he had teams that were more stacked.

Now I think Joe’s great and rare him very highly, but it’s the same thing with Michael Jordan the myth of them is bigger than the reality and people are far more forgiving of their flaws and more dismissive of the tremendous external advantages they had compared to the modern players who have challenged their spot (Lebron, Brady) 

[LaserFocus]

16 hours ago, lancerman said:

It’s kind of funny but for all the “Brady had Belichick and he’s a system QB”, Montana had Walsh install a system that was so far ahead of its time that it was a premier NFL style offense years after both were out of the league, easily considered the best coach of the 80’s, and he had teams that were more stacked.

Now I think Joe’s great and rare him very highly, but it’s the same thing with Michael Jordan the myth of them is bigger than the reality and people are far more forgiving of their flaws and more dismissive of the tremendous external advantages they had compared to the modern players who have challenged their spot (Lebron, Brady) 

 

Put me down as someone who never believed Brady was a system QB, and Bill Walsh was running the West Coast Offense in Cincinnati years before he arrived in San Francisco. What benefited the West Coast Offense big time was the 1978 rules changes, ditto for the Air Coryell attack in San Diego. It was more execution than surprise for the Niners, as Montana was clearly a superior QB to Ken Anderson. And yes, the Niners had plenty of talent, but Montana was clearly no game manager, and it's hardly a coincidence Jerry Rice first developed during this era. 

 

[LaserFocus]

19 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Montana used to dive to the ground when he saw sacks coming. I've never seen anyone mention that. And even with that, he was extremely injury prone.

His status as a great is so inflated it's ridiculous. You would think he got the Michael Jordan marketing.

Nobody seems to realize that Bill Walsh didn't think nearly as highly of Montana as everyone else. Walsh not only had other QBs rated ahead of him in the 1979 draft (including Steve Dils), but he really wanted Steve Young to take the starting job from him in 1987 and 1988. The supposed "GOAT" spent much of the second half of his 49er career mired in QB controversy. And I'm sure people will retroactively go, "but it was Steve Young," but Steve Young was not Steve Young in those days. Steve Young was a bust from Tampa Bay, turned into a project. 

Walsh was eager to replace Montana, but Young hadn't mastered the offense yet. If Montana's time as the 49ers' starting QB ends at that point, nobody is mentioning him as an all-time great.

Montana's status is based more on emotion and charisma than substance. He built a legacy largely out of game winning drives that shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Why is his team - with a loaded offense - losing 16-13 late in the 4th quarter to the Bengals when he's facing a mediocre defense that had lost its best player (Krumrie)? What about the 3 INTs in the 81-82 NFC Championship game that set up the need for that game winning drive and "The Catch?"

And here were the points allowed in all 3 postseason games combined for the 84, 88, and 89 seasons: 26, 28, 26. They never allowed more than 16 points in a postseason game in those 3 Super Bowl runs. I like my odds of winning the Super Bowl that way with at least 50 QBs. 

For me, Montana was a good, not great quarterback. Good mobility, good on rollouts, very nice touch on the shorter throws, and could drop a rainbow deep pass right in the bucket every now and then. 

But he was too programmed. If the opponent had the right game plan that day, he couldn't make something happen. The offense would be completely anemic. There was no real urgency with him. 

Steve Young, on the other hand, would fight to the death to get something going...ad-lib, scramble, defy the coaches and try another target. Brett Favre would ad-lib, defy the coaches, try another target. 

There's an entertaining video on Youtube where Young and Favre chatted on stage, and at one point, Young mentions that the biggest thing he learned from Favre is that you have to be an "artist" in the red zone, because, "if you do what the coaches tell you, you kick a field goal." Montana was that guy who did what the coaches told him. 

Lots to unpack here, including the fact Bill Walsh was a supreme perfectionist, who loved the running dimension and potential of Steve Young. We have to remember Montana was also dealing with some injury issues, and there was fallout from the playoff upset against Minnesota in the '87 playoffs. The reason Young became the starter for good was because of the severe injury Montana sustained in the 1990 postseason against the Giants, and with Montana being older, that was the beginning of the end of his time in SF. Young never did excel in the postseason like Joe, only reaching one Super Bowl.

It's easy to see why the Niners struggled offensively against the Bengals in the SB you mentioned. Cincinnati was using the new Zone Blitz scheme, which can create problems for the West Coast attack. The great QBs find ways to win even when their teams are struggling offensively, and that's what Montana did on a consistent basis. I don't understand your comment about Montana being a programmed QB, one of his strengths was finding the right play when something went wrong. One of his best games was the one in Philadelphia, when his line was being shredded, and Montana was sacked frequently. Besides the physical price, Montana led a great comeback win, one of many memorable moments.

In Kansas City, without the same supporting cast, and diminished ability, Montana still led the Chiefs to an AFC TG, something which hasn't happened since. Along the way, beating Kelly, Elway, and Steve Young in the regular season, and Warren Moon in the playoffs. Never lost three Super Bowls as a favorite, still the authentic GOAT QB in my book. 

[Non-Issue]

I guess it is going to be up to me to set all of this straight. But I will start by saying this is why you don't listen to "NFL EXPERTS" who are forced to create their own narrative because they weren't there and don't know the details.

Montana used to dive to the ground when he saw sacks coming. I've never seen anyone mention that. And even with that, he was extremely injury prone.

That is what injury prone QBs are supposed to do.

His status as a great is so inflated it's ridiculous. You would think he got the Michael Jordan marketing.

His status as a great is only inflated by hindsight. What he was doing at the time was ridiculous.

Nobody seems to realize that Bill Walsh didn't think nearly as highly of Montana as everyone else. Walsh not only had other QBs rated ahead of him in the 1979 draft (including Steve Dils),

Nobody "realizes" it because it isn't true. At least not after drafting Montana and working with him. Whether he had other QBs rated higher in the draft is irrelevant. Once Walsh had Montana in the fold, he knew what he had. You think Walsh spent any time regretting not getting his hands on Dils??? Coaches and GMs are wrong all the time in the draft. The fact that 31 teams didn't want to have anything to do with Tom Brady has nothing to do with how they feel about him NOW.

but he really wanted Steve Young to take the starting job from him in 1987 and 1988. The supposed "GOAT" spent much of the second half of his 49er career mired in QB controversy.

No he didn't. This is ridiculous nonsense.

Steve Young wasn't brought in because Bill Walsh didn't care for Montana and wanted to find his replacement. Steve Young was brought in as insurance because Joe Montana, at 30 years old, the age many QBs started to break down in those days, had suffered a severe back injury the year prior. An injury so sever that doctors suggested he retire from football altogether. Old QB + Back Injury = Better Have a Plan B In Place.

And I'm sure people will retroactively go, "but it was Steve Young," but Steve Young was not Steve Young in those days. Steve Young was a bust from Tampa Bay, turned into a project.

People shouldn't retroactively go "Steve Young." They should retroactively go "RUPTURED DISK AND BACK SURGERY AT THIRTY!"

Walsh was eager to replace Montana, but Young hadn't mastered the offense yet. If Montana's time as the 49ers' starting QB ends at that point, nobody is mentioning him as an all-time great.

Do you have any idea how silly that your narrative sounds? How far off the mark it is?

Montana's status is based more on emotion and charisma than substance. He built a legacy largely out of game winning drives that shouldn't have been necessary in the first place.

Don't get reductive. He built his legacy on the numbers he produced. How efficient he was. How he carved up defenses. AND how he was never rattled when down late.

Why is his team - with a loaded offense - losing 16-13 late in the 4th quarter to the Bengals when he's facing a mediocre defense that had lost its best player (Krumrie)?

He wasn't having a great game. But he didn't let it rattle him. And when all the chips were on the table, he produced the winning hand. The fact that the team had to come back from behind is some kind of negative??? It's not like the guy was throwing pick 6's.

What about the 3 INTs in the 81-82 NFC Championship game that set up the need for that game winning drive and "The Catch?"

He had a bad game against a good team. In his first season as a full time starter. And first time in the playoffs. With a less than stellar offensive support cast. But again, with all the chips on the table, he managed to come up with the winning hand.

So... yeah? Care to deliver a list of the QBs you have ahead of him? Hope they never struggled in a playoff game.

And here were the points allowed in all 3 postseason games combined for the 84, 88, and 89 seasons: 26, 28, 26. They never allowed more than 16 points in a postseason game in those 3 Super Bowl runs. I like my odds of winning the Super Bowl that way with at least 50 QBs. 

Especially if your point totals in those seasons are 82, 82 and 126 respectively.

You really are terrible at this, by the way.

For me, Montana was a good, not great quarterback. Good mobility, good on rollouts, very nice touch on the shorter throws, and could drop a rainbow deep pass right in the bucket every now and then. 

But he was too programmed. If the opponent had the right game plan that day, he couldn't make something happen. The offense would be completely anemic. There was no real urgency with him. 

Steve Young, on the other hand, would fight to the death to get something going...ad-lib, scramble, defy the coaches and try another target. Brett Favre would ad-lib, defy the coaches, try another target. 

There's an entertaining video on Youtube where Young and Favre chatted on stage, and at one point, Young mentions that the biggest thing he learned from Favre is that you have to be an "artist" in the red zone, because, "if you do what the coaches tell you, you kick a field goal." Montana was that guy who did what the coaches told him. 

Aaaaaaand you close with a completely apropos dud. Great job.

I have no idea what NFL you are the expert of. But it aint the NFL that Joe Montana played in. Maybe you are an expert on Newfoundland???

[EvilenFroggen]

Ichiro doesn't care about Brady's longetivity.

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, DaveDX said:

Ichiro doesn't care about Brady's longetivity.

Who the f is Ichiro?

[NFLExpert49]

5 hours ago, Non-Issue said:

Quote

That is what injury prone QBs are supposed to do.

Uh, no. He did it his entire career. He was fragile, which is a knock on a QB. Unlike you, I've actually seen him play. 
 

Quote

His status as a great is only inflated by hindsight. What he was doing at the time was ridiculous.

Nonsense. Nobody thought Montana was historically good before 1989. He had only 1 first-team all-pro selection (strike shortened 1987 season) before then. 

 

Quote

Nobody "realizes" it because it isn't true. At least not after drafting Montana and working with him. Whether he had other QBs rated higher in the draft is irrelevant. Once Walsh had Montana in the fold, he knew what he had. You think Walsh spent any time regretting not getting his hands on Dils??? Coaches and GMs are wrong all the time in the draft. The fact that 31 teams didn't want to have anything to do with Tom Brady has nothing to do with how they feel about him NOW.

Yeah, Walsh knew what he had, and what he had was something he didn't consider truly great. 
 

Quote

No he didn't. This is ridiculous nonsense.

Steve Young wasn't brought in because Bill Walsh didn't care for Montana and wanted to find his replacement. Steve Young was brought in as insurance because Joe Montana, at 30 years old, the age many QBs started to break down in those days, had suffered a severe back injury the year prior. An injury so sever that doctors suggested he retire from football altogether. Old QB + Back Injury = Better Have a Plan B In Place.

Again, uh, no. There was QB controversy between the two from the time Young was brought in until Walsh retired. It was a major story then. 

And no, 30 was never the age many QBs started to "break down." 

Age during last season in NFL:

Frank Tarkenton: 38

Roger Staubach: 37

Terry Bradshaw: 35

John Hadl: 37

John Brodie: 38

Len Dawson: 40

Roman Gabriel: 37

Billy Kilmer: 39

Jim Plunkett: 39

Brian Sipe: 34

Ken Anderson: 37

Johnny Unitas: 40

Bob Griese: 35

Joe Namath: 34

Ken Stabler: 39

Jim Hart: 40

Sonny Jergensen: 40

Norm Snead: 37

 

If Walsh had been so enamored with Montana, he would not have gone all-in on Young and then championed him winning the starting job from Montana ASAP for 2 years straight. 
 

5 hours ago, Non-Issue said:

 

Quote

People shouldn't retroactively go "Steve Young." They should retroactively go "RUPTURED DISK AND BACK SURGERY AT THIRTY!"

Again, there was QB controversy with a green Young. Even after the 1987 strike season, there was QB controversy. 

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Do you have any idea how silly that your narrative sounds? How far off the mark it is?

Do you have any idea how silly you sound trying to argue this when you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about? I'm a 49ers fan. I have no trouble admitting how overrated Montana was. 

 

Quote

Don't get reductive. He built his legacy on the numbers he produced. How efficient he was. How he carved up defenses. AND how he was never rattled when down late.

What numbers? What efficiency? He was a checkdown king. 

 

Quote

He wasn't having a great game. But he didn't let it rattle him. And when all the chips were on the table, he produced the winning hand. The fact that the team had to come back from behind is some kind of negative??? It's not like the guy was throwing pick 6's.

Uh, yes. It's a negative when you can only manage 13 points against a mediocre defense that was playing without its best player, when your targets are Rice, Taylor, Frank, Craig, and Rathman.
 

Quote

 

He had a bad game against a good team. In his first season as a full time starter. And first time in the playoffs. With a less than stellar offensive support cast. But again, with all the chips on the table, he managed to come up with the winning hand.

So... yeah? Care to deliver a list of the QBs you have ahead of him? Hope they never struggled in a playoff game.

 

That's not the point. The point is people give him credit for coming back, when he was the main reason they had to come back in the first place. 

He doesn't deserve extra credit for "coming back." 
 

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Especially if your point totals in those seasons are 82, 82 and 126 respectively.

The only impressive performances Montana had in any of those 3 runs were the NFC Championship game @ Chicago and the Super Bowl vs. Miami. The others were dumpoff and shooting fish in a barrel games. Oh, but I'm sure you think there's something special about completing a checkdown pass. It's not like 50+ other QBs could do the same thing. 

 

 

[NFLExpert49]

10 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

Lots to unpack here, including the fact Bill Walsh was a supreme perfectionist, who loved the running dimension and potential of Steve Young. We have to remember Montana was also dealing with some injury issues, and there was fallout from the playoff upset against Minnesota in the '87 playoffs. The reason Young became the starter for good was because of the severe injury Montana sustained in the 1990 postseason against the Giants, and with Montana being older, that was the beginning of the end of his time in SF. Young never did excel in the postseason like Joe, only reaching one Super Bowl.

It's easy to see why the Niners struggled offensively against the Bengals in the SB you mentioned. Cincinnati was using the new Zone Blitz scheme, which can create problems for the West Coast attack. The great QBs find ways to win even when their teams are struggling offensively, and that's what Montana did on a consistent basis. I don't understand your comment about Montana being a programmed QB, one of his strengths was finding the right play when something went wrong. One of his best games was the one in Philadelphia, when his line was being shredded, and Montana was sacked frequently. Besides the physical price, Montana led a great comeback win, one of many memorable moments.

In Kansas City, without the same supporting cast, and diminished ability, Montana still led the Chiefs to an AFC TG, something which hasn't happened since. Along the way, beating Kelly, Elway, and Steve Young in the regular season, and Warren Moon in the playoffs. Never lost three Super Bowls as a favorite, still the authentic GOAT QB in my book. 

The 49ers struggled against the Bengals because Montana was a conservative-minded QB who took the "touchdown or checkdown" rule too seriously once down in the redzone. 

Montana would not have done any better than Young in the postseason games the 49ers lost when Young was the starter. He's not going to beat those Cowboys teams nor those Packers teams. Not with those opponents, not with those 49ers defenses. He never beat anyone like either of those teams before. Every team the 49ers beat in Montana's Super Bowl runs either had a mediocre or worse offense or a mediocre or worse defense. 

He didn't lead Kansas City anywhere. He took over as QB for a perennial playoff team and their offense scored fewer points the next year. Steve Bono took over as the Chiefs' starting QB in 1995 and they went 13-3. Scored more points, too. 

The margins between Bono and Montana with the Chiefs are not great. Nor were the margins between DeBerg and Montana. 

When Peyton Manning went down, the Colts collapsed. Got the #1 pick in the draft. When Aaron Rodgers went down, the Packers collapsed. 

When Montana retired, the Chiefs got better. 

[LaserFocus]

10 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

The 49ers struggled against the Bengals because Montana was a conservative-minded QB who took the "touchdown or checkdown" rule too seriously once down in the redzone. 

Montana would not have done any better than Young in the postseason games the 49ers lost when Young was the starter. He's not going to beat those Cowboys teams nor those Packers teams. Not with those opponents, not with those 49ers defenses. He never beat anyone like either of those teams before. Every team the 49ers beat in Montana's Super Bowl runs either had a mediocre or worse offense or a mediocre or worse defense. 

He didn't lead Kansas City anywhere. He took over as QB for a perennial playoff team and their offense scored fewer points the next year. Steve Bono took over as the Chiefs' starting QB in 1995 and they went 13-3. Scored more points, too. 

The margins between Bono and Montana with the Chiefs are not great. Nor were the margins between DeBerg and Montana. 

When Peyton Manning went down, the Colts collapsed. Got the #1 pick in the draft. When Aaron Rodgers went down, the Packers collapsed. 

When Montana retired, the Chiefs got better. 

Steve Bono choked in the postseason at home versus the Colts when KC was favored, and it was Bill Walsh who said DeBerg played just well enough to get you beat. The mark of a great QB is winning even when things don't go as planned, the programmed Walsh QB was Kenny Anderson, not Montana. Young also had more bad postseason games than good after the 1994 season.

 

[NFLExpert49]

4 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

Steve Bono choked in the postseason at home versus the Colts when KC was favored, and it was Bill Walsh who said DeBerg played just well enough to get you beat. The mark of a great QB is winning even when things don't go as planned, the programmed Walsh QB was Kenny Anderson, not Montana. Young also had more bad postseason games than good after the 1994 season.

 

QB playoff struggles aren't usually related to choking; QBs tend to struggle more in the postseason because they tend to play better defenses and because the weather tends to be worse. Jim Harbaugh's numbers were terrible in that game as well.