***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[fretgod99]

14 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

So your argument that if he kills half of existence then he is evil because obviously you know so much better then a bad guy. I got a question for you. If this gauntlet is similar to the comics and grants him omniscience and with him still having good intentions as well as all the knowledge there is to ever know he still decides his original plan is the best course of action and best solution for the universe at large. Does it still make him the bad guy? Because his knowledge would be absolute, therefore his line of thinking, his reasoning could be argued to be perfect.

If we’re using the comics as a guide, then Thanos is unquestionably evil.

And no, Thanos wouldn’t still be right. He crafted the solution prior to having the supposed omniscience. He’s colored by hubris. His plan is unquestionably flawed from the jump, as I’ve laid out. In order for it to work out, he would have to continue to fairly regularly wipe out half the population of the universe because, as he stated, resources are finite.

And if there’s time to enact other changes to create the utopia he wants for everybody after wiping out half of everyone, that should have been the plan from the beginning. But either he doesn’t have omniscience, because he doesn’t immediately see the flaws in his plan, or he does and doesn’t care about the flaws in his plan. Either way, still evil.

[Calvert28]

27 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

You realize Thanos’ culture is entirely made, right? It doesn’t actually exist. This story is being told over our cultural framework. So of course we analyze it with our culture’s standards and mores in mind. That’s the entire point.

If we are supposed to judge it based entirely on our culture of whats right and wrong then you would be right. If that's all the Russo's had planned then they are disappointing.

 

25 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Except his argument is that resources are finite and that’s why the number of people is a problem. He does nothing to change the resources. And he does nothing to change the inevitable number of people. Not every civilization was on the brink of collapse. Why not use his ultimate solution on the ones that were and then work with the other ones to prevent the problem from ever coming to fruition? Probably because he doesn’t care that much about anything except for being right. He’s an evil, megalomaniacal dictator.

Orrrrr maybe he's just insane. Maybe that one is an answer?

[Calvert28]

21 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

If we’re using the comics as a guide, then Thanos is unquestionably evil.

And no, Thanos wouldn’t still be right. He crafted the solution prior to having the supposed omniscience. He’s colored by hubris. His plan is unquestionably flawed from the jump, as I’ve laid out. In order for it to work out, he would have to continue to fairly regularly wipe out half the population of the universe because, as he stated, resources are finite.

And if there’s time to enact other changes to create the utopia he wants for everybody after wiping out half of everyone, that should have been the plan from the beginning. But either he doesn’t have omniscience, because he doesn’t immediately see the flaws in his plan, or he does and doesn’t care about the flaws in his plan. Either way, still evil.

Wow, sounds like you have the whole universe figured out.

So what you are claiming is that he who's ultimate goal is to spare worlds from the same fate that came to his would ignore all the knowledge at his disposal just to prove a point. Even though he showed multiple times in the film he can be to an extent level headed?

[diamondbull424]

8 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

You realize Thanos’ culture is entirely made, right? It doesn’t actually exist. This story is being told over our cultural framework. So of course we analyze it with our culture’s standards and mores in mind. That’s the entire point.

What’s more is that Thanos’ culture is also made within the universe he lives within. Every principle character in this universe disagrees with his moral actions. Including his daughters (whom he raised) and the former society on Titan (which raised him). So by way of real world morality and by way of the fictional morality, Thanos is evil. No ones morality views him as good or neutral.

[diamondbull424]

10 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

If we are supposed to judge it based entirely on our culture of whats right and wrong then you would be right. If that's all the Russo's had planned then they are disappointing.

Whose culture are we judging Thanos’ actions off of?

Quote

cul·ture

ˈkəlCHər/

noun

1. 1. 

   the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.

Note culture is regarded collectively, who besides Thanos believes in his vision so as to make it a “collective” way of life? 

Perhaps if the Black Order were better developed characters you could point to them, but you could only assume that they believe in Thanos’ goals vs some other reason for serving him.

[diamondbull424]

 

1 hour ago, Calvert28 said:

Lawful neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all freedom, choice, and diversity in society.

In basketball we call this cherry picking. Funny how you left out the other part to this. I’ll help you.

Quote

A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.

Lawful neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all freedom, choice, and diversity in society.

Quote

zeal·ot

ˈzelət/

noun

1. a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

    

    

    

    

   zealotnoun [ C ] 

   UK  /ˈzel.ət/ US /ˈzel.ət/

    

   a person who has very strong opinions about something, and tries to make other people have them too: 

   a religious zealot

    

 

1 hour ago, Calvert28 said:

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

Even if Thanos believes he is in the right, this disproves your faulty logic. Someone that is neutral is a) not a zealot and b) lacks the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

Thanos sacrifices Gamora to “save the universe” and he also is a Zealot, who tortures his daughters so they can equally become as you say “survivalists”. He doesn’t just uphold rules, he tortures others so that they might enforce them as well.

None of this from my own assumptions. All of the above is either fact or from your own assumptions on Thanos. Your logic is flawed and has been found wanting.

[fretgod99]

50 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Wow, sounds like you have the whole universe figured out.

So what you are claiming is that he who's ultimate goal is to spare worlds from the same fate that came to his would ignore all the knowledge at his disposal just to prove a point. Even though he showed multiple times in the film he can be to an extent level headed?

So is he level-headed or insane? And why does him potentially being insane mean he cannot be evil? They are not mutually exclusive.

And again, if we’re leaning on comic influence, there’s no question he’s evil. Don’t think there’s much question about it in the comics.

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

What’s more is that Thanos’ culture is also made within the universe he lives within. Every principle character in this universe disagrees with his moral actions. Including his daughters (whom he raised) and the former society on Titan (which raised him). So by way of real world morality and by way of the fictional morality, Thanos is evil. No ones morality views him as good or neutral.

Your entire mindset going into this was the Thanos was evil based upon our cultures beliefs, meaning anyone who doesn't fit into that mold according to you is evil. Thats narrowminded. There is no other way to look at that. Because he killed someone, it doesn't matter the reason he still did it which makes him evil. That's not you using logic to determine his alignment. That's you already making up your mind of what he is and look for reasons to support the argument.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Calvert28

[diamondbull424]

Quote

Lawful Evil

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts.

Thanos kills anyone with an Infinity stone that does not submit to his will. Doesn’t matter if it’s his daughter or a superhero.

He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve.

Rules the Black Order. Tortures daughters but within the rules of survival of the fittest.

He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. Condemns and kills based not on relationships but an overpopulated universe.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). The entire scene on Gamora’s Home planet is described here.

They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good.

Thanos is just as commited to his goal of “saving the universe” by killing half of it, as much as the Avengers are commited to sacrificing their lives to save the lives of everyone currently living in the universe.

Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

In the comics that deity is Mistress Death. But I won’t count that since this is only about the movie.

Lawful evil is sometimes called "diabolical," because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.

Lawful evil creatures consider their alignment to be the best because it combines honor with a dedicated self-interest.

Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

Methodical- waiting over 10 years to make a move. Also waiting until Odin dies, who could have seriously challenged him.

Intentional- Definitely chooses to murder half the universe of his own volition. This isn’t the same as a kid playing with a gun.

Successful- Murders half of Gamora’s Home planet (even though GOTG stated that he murdered her entire planet and left her as the only orphan) and he equally murders half the universe to achieve his aims.

http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html

That all reads like an autobiography for Thanos. Weird, I guess @Calvert28 will have to educate us on why it reads that way.

Clearly there must be some sympathetic delusion that can defend how Thanos might be misunderstood here, correct? 

[diamondbull424]

15 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Your entire mindset going into this was the Thanos was evil based upon our cultures beliefs, meaning anyone who doesn't fit into that mold according to you is evil. Thats narrowminded. There is no other way to look at that. Because he killed someone, it doesn't matter the reason he still did it which makes him evil. That's not you using logic to determine his alignment. That's you already making up your mind of what he is and look for reasons to support the argument.

This response does not address the quoted points found within my response.

Furthermore you are making assumptions about my mindset going into this.

And since I am myself speaking for my mindset, I am openly stating that such was not my mindset.

Thus your assumption on my mindset has been proven false. By my very own mind.

Edited May 14, 2018 by diamondbull424

[Mox]

Has there been a moral argument going on with Thanos' methods for like the last 40 pages? When I'm bored enough I may reread that

[Calvert28]

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

 

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts.

Thanos kills anyone with an Infinity stone that does not submit to his will. Doesn’t matter if it’s his daughter or a superhero.

 

Is that Cherry picking thing you talked about? So he killed Gammora without regard? What was he crying for then? Cause he was so close to getting the soul stone? Why did Redskull make it clear that the tears were for Gammora? You've been cherry picking since the beginning of our debate.

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve.

Rules the Black Order. Tortures daughters but within the rules of survival of the fittest.

 

Yea adopts Gammora, as a daughter claims she is his favorite. Goes through the trouble of showing compassion even though she figuratively spits in his face each and every time. Without mercy or compassion, and doesn't believe in freedom. And yet he sent Gammora off without guards, without a tracker implanted in her anywhere. Without really anything to keep her in place and loyal only to him and what he wants. Wow, sounds like he's not very good about sticking to that no dignity, freedom or life thing. I would imagine when lawful evil views something as a object for their own personal use they would keep them that way. A possession that's chained, or controlled in an extreme way. Like a collar around a slave's neck.

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. Condemns and kills based not on relationships but an overpopulated universe.

 

Did you even read that statement? And where does he condemn anyone in the movie? It doesn't matter who dies to him so long as balance is maintained, that to him is the only way to be fair. But he does not judge based on homeland which would be the country or planet they serve which would indicate he judges them based upon what they believe. He would have a preconceived notion on their belief system and therefore would condemn them based on that. Thanos did not once do that in the movie.

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). The entire scene on Gamora’s Home planet is described here.

 

I'm sure many children died on the other side where those people were being slaughtered. So lets be real he could have helped it. He chose not to because that contradicts of having random selection determine their fate. Right or left in that scene. He then kills them all. He took a liking to Gammora that does not mean he spared the children.

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good.

Thanos is just as commited to his goal of “saving the universe” by killing half of it, as much as the Avengers are commited to sacrificing their lives to save the lives of everyone currently living in the universe.

 

 

 

Except by that statement the person would have to admit they are evil. Thanos has only ever admitted he is a survivor. Wow the Avengers are so great. Maybe you should go back and watch Civil War and what that movie was about. They opperating and self governed outside of normal society on how best to serve it. Basically putting themselves above the law. And the entire movie was about Tony and Cap debating whether or not they should govern themselves or have someone decide that for them. But all of this came about by death toll that kept creeping up by the amount of lives they saved. So while they had good intentions and were doing good to save people. They also cost lives of many around them when they couldn't control the situation.

They caused those deaths, that much is a fact. By choosing to act in populated areas because it was the best chance to nab the bad guy. So that would technically make them evil right? At least according to you.

 

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

In the comics that deity is Mistress Death. But I won’t count that since this is only about the movie.

 

Mmmm yea except he never did take pleasure in it.

 

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

Lawful evil is sometimes called "diabolical," because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.

Lawful evil creatures consider their alignment to be the best because it combines honor with a dedicated self-interest.

Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

Methodical- waiting over 10 years to make a move. Also waiting until Odin dies, who could have seriously challenged him.

Intentional- Definitely chooses to murder half the universe of his own volition. This isn’t the same as a kid playing with a gun.

Successful- Murders half of Gamora’s Home planet (even though GOTG stated that he murdered her entire planet and left her as the only orphan) and he equally murders half the universe to achieve his aims.

 

Lawful evil combines honor with self-interest. Where did he show he only served himself in that movie? You guys have yet to put up a legit argument there. Because he wants the stones is not a legit argument BTW.

The moves were being put into place far before that. Lmao and whos assuming now? Where anywhere did it actually say he waited until Odin died?

Wanda definitely decided to murder Vision to prevent Thanos from succeeding. Evil right? Even if it was the last choice, she didn't want to make it. But that doesn't matter because it was "intentional". So she was evil. That kid is evil too according to you because he killed someone based off of the posts you've made.

Lol and I don't even know why you brought up successful. That has nothing to do with being evil and made no sense what so ever. Good guys can be successful. So success=evil?

 

 

 

[Calvert28]

26 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

This response does not address the quoted points found within my response.

Im adressing all of your posts with that statement.

26 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Furthermore you are making assumptions about my mindset going into this.

Making? No i've made. Because you have made it clear you have judged Thanos not based on his character. But on his actions. Actions do not always project the mindset of the person who did them.

26 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

And since I am myself speaking for my mindset, I am openly stating that such was not my mindset.

You say that. But only because you may actually believe that. Zealot's don't actually see where their flaws are.

 

[fretgod99]

Vision asked Wanda to do it. That’s a pretty significant difference, don’t you think? I mean, one is an intentional self-sacrifice to save half of the life in the entire universe and the other is literally murdering (not “killing”, “murdering”) precisely half of life everywhere. Even though there is absolutely no proof that it is a necessary step anywhere, let alone everywhere, let alone an imminently necessary one.

[Calvert28]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Even if Thanos believes he is in the right, this disproves your faulty logic. Someone that is neutral is a) not a zealot and b) lacks the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

Left it out because it contradicted itself. At worst eliminating freedom, diversity, and choice. What exactly do you think a zealot does?

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Thanos sacrifices Gamora to “save the universe” and he also is a Zealot, who tortures his daughters so they can equally become as you say “survivalists”. He doesn’t just uphold rules, he tortures others so that they might enforce them as well.

K I already stated that.

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

None of this from my own assumptions. All of the above is either fact or from your own assumptions on Thanos. Your logic is flawed and has been found wanting.