College Football / NFL Draft Discussion

[matt27j]

Next year you can let Kizer start while Darnold or Rosen sit. If he lights it up they can keep sitting.

Kizer is a Brady/Glennon/statue type of QB, and IMO it's harder for those guys to find success as rookies because they can't roll, escape, maneuver around the pocket as well as someone like Trubisky or Watson. However, as long as Kizer has it mentally he should make a jump in year 2 in understanding the game but only Hue Jackson spends enough time with him to know that.

If Hue trusts in that development we very well could pass on the QB and continue to accrue more draft capital. I like bosko's mock. If we don't take a QB you could take anything but I'd prefer to double up on CB, grab another DL, or OT. RB and S are my favorite positions but with RB by committee and the deep safety in Greg's defense basically not doing much of anything I don't see them as the best options considering more pressing needs. 

 

[MSURacerDT55]

3 minutes ago, Aztec Hammer said:

The thing is your description of his play does make him sound like he's been the ideal QB, and that any of the bad isn't on him. Perhaps I'm being too harsh on him being slow to make reads and being clumsy in the pocket; maybe those are just rookie tendencies but turning over the ball in the redzone is inexcusable. That's not on being a rookie nor the play calling. It's sloppy and poor.

Hogan came in and instantly sparked the team. Kizer's not ready. I personally have doubts he'll ever be but I think both my current viewpoint and yours are fair as it stands. It's far too early to know the final result.

You still didn't answer the question on Kizer being a poor prospect, How do you differentiate between him playing poor which would be a result of being a 21 year old rookie and being a poor prospect?

How would have differentiated Peyton Manning as a prospect when he threw 28 interceptions or Troy Aikman when he threw 18?

[Aztec Hammer]

1 minute ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

You still didn't answer the question on Kizer being a poor prospect, How do you differentiate between him playing poor which would be a result of being a 21 year old rookie and being a poor prospect?

How would have differentiated Peyton Manning as a prospect when he threw 28 interceptions or Troy Aikman when he threw 18?

In that case, my answer would be pointless as everything I say you will chalk up to being a rookie.

My point is that coming from a place where I began as someone who didn't like Kizer's ability to play QB in college, he's displaying the same things I didn't like, but now in the pros.

I didn't watch Peyton in college but I'd predict that I would've liked more about his fundamental ability to play the position if I had, and therefore felt more confident in chalking up his early troubles in the pros to being a rookie. With Kizer, I'm struggling to do that because of what I've already established about him from seeing him in college.

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

You still didn't answer the question on Kizer being a poor prospect, How do you differentiate between him playing poor which would be a result of being a 21 year old rookie and being a poor prospect?

How would have differentiated Peyton Manning as a prospect when he threw 28 interceptions or Troy Aikman when he threw 18?

I won't speak for him, but I'll offer my two cents, aside from the obvious position of the QB's drafted (1st overall for both).

Manning also threw 26 TD and completed 56.7% of his passes. That's a lot better than Kizer so far.

Aikman would be a more fair comparison, coming off of a 1 win team and going 0-11 as a starter while completing 52.9% of his passes. However, for right or for wrong, draft position matters.

Kizer is an expendable 2nd rounder, Aikman was the 1st pick of the draft.

[MSURacerDT55]

7 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I won't speak for him, but I'll offer my two cents, aside from the obvious position of the QB's drafted (1st overall for both).

Manning also threw 26 TD and completed 56.7% of his passes. That's a lot better than Kizer so far.

Aikman would be a more fair comparison, coming off of a 1 win team and going 0-11 as a starter while completing 52.9% of his passes. However, for right or for wrong, draft position matters.

Kizer is an expendable 2nd rounder, Aikman was the 1st pick of the draft.

So, what you're telling me is you argument is draft position??? Seriously?

Were you aware that Brett Favre and Drew Brees were drafted in the second round?

[Thomas5737]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

I won't speak for him, but I'll offer my two cents, aside from the obvious position of the QB's drafted (1st overall for both).

Manning also threw 26 TD and completed 56.7% of his passes. That's a lot better than Kizer so far.

Aikman would be a more fair comparison, coming off of a 1 win team and going 0-11 as a starter while completing 52.9% of his passes. However, for right or for wrong, draft position matters.

Kizer is an expendable 2nd rounder, Aikman was the 1st pick of the draft.

Yeah statistically Manning was far superior as a rookie. Sack rate was half as high as Kizer, TD% was more than twice as high and a lower INT%. Statistically 2015 Manning was better than Kizer though so statistically pretty much every QB has been better than Kizer. Kizer's one decent game (statistically) came week one which is unfortunate it would have been nice to see a gradual progression to keep our hopes up and keep him starting.

He needs to sit awhile for a sake other than his and if we see enough from Hogan then Kizer needs to go back in and close out the last 4-5 games of the season.

[Thomas5737]

2 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

So, what you're telling me is you argument is draft position??? Seriously?

Were you aware that Brett Favre and Drew Brees were drafted in the second round?

My critique as a prospect and a pro is accuracy. His timing isn't great but that should improve with experience, sporadic accuracy usually is a harder fix.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

So, what you're telling me is you argument is draft position??? Seriously?

My argument is that the #1 overall pick of the draft automatically has superior skills to someone who was drafted in the mid to late 2nd round (Very important, hence the draft position. Obviously there are outliers like Jamarcus Russell), and there's a reason why 3 people were selected ahead of him 90% of the time.

You look at Manning and Aikman (or a host of others), in both college and at points as a rookie, and you see things like:

*College Tape (Critical)

*Accuracy (Kizer has little)

*The ability to read a defense (Kizer=LOL)

*GETTING BETTER (He hasn't, not even a little bit)

*Limited Red Zone Turnovers (5 in 4 games since he missed two halves basically...that's RIDICULOUS)

*Both had college degrees

[MSURacerDT55]

Just now, Thomas5737 said:

My critique as a prospect and a pro is accuracy. His timing isn't great but that should improve with experience, sporadic accuracy usually is a harder fix.

Jesus Christ, how is it sporadic accuracy when he hits guys in the hands and in the numbers?, you had me until you said that, I agree with the timing but kid is 21 playing in his first few NFL games, guy the kid some slack

[MSURacerDT55]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

My argument is that the #1 overall pick of the draft automatically has superior skills to someone who was drafted in the mid to late 2nd round (Very important, hence the draft position. Obviously there are outliers like Jamarcus Russell), and there's a reason why 3 people were selected ahead of him 90% of the time.

You look at Manning and Aikman (or a host of others), in both college and at points as a rookie, and you see things like:

*College Tape (Critical)

*Accuracy (Kizer has little)

*The ability to read a defense (Kizer=LOL)

*GETTING BETTER (He hasn't, not even a little bit)

*Limited Red Zone Turnovers (5 in 4 games since he missed two halves basically...that's RIDICULOUS)

*Both had college degrees

K bro, thanks

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

K bro, thanks

You're welcome bro. I couldn't care less what you think about my analysis if you're going to have a snarky little snippet of a response. I hated Kizer as a prospect going into the draft, so I didn't magically love him once the Browns drafted him.So far, he and Watson have both proven me correct. We'll see if it continues. For my money, it will, although I hope I'm wrong.

[Thomas5737]

2 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Jesus Christ, how is it sporadic accuracy when he hits guys in the hands and in the numbers?, you had me until you said that, I agree with the timing but kid is 21 playing in his first few NFL games, guy the kid some slack

Sometimes he is very accurate, probably 75%+ of the time. That has to be well above 90% though. You can't be a threat to be picked off in 25% of your passes. Odds are that many won't just be inaccurate towards a defender and won't be picked but a large percentage of those passes will be uncatchable or dangerous.

I made up the numbers, the point is he has to be more accurate than he has shown in the NFL.

[Dogbite]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Jesus Christ, how is it sporadic accuracy when he hits guys in the hands and in the numbers?, you had me until you said that, I agree with the timing but kid is 21 playing in his first few NFL games, guy the kid some slack

Do you even understand the definition of sporadic or are you just arguing because you cannot handle the thought of the Browns having wasted yet another high pick on a QB? You are correct there have been times when he has hit the receivers in the hands and been let down with drops, however, he has had more than his fair share of passes that have been completely off the mark. It has been his MO since high school. He can have perfect placement on one play and then the very next be way off the mark. He is the very definition of sporadic.

I haven't been here very long but it didn't take me long to find out the one guy who is not even worth talking football with.

[matt27j]

With the way things are trending Kizer may not be getting his job back. Hogan has the frame and protection to stay healthy and with the guys around him starting to settle in and the defense continuing to grow it's time to put someone in who can at least make throws in a timely manner. 

Now it's a no win situation for Kizer. If we lose with either him or Hogan in there we draft a QB. If Hogan wins enough games to take us out of that race then we have a QB competition next season.

Hogan has taken advantage of his opportunities since arriving with the Browns and if that trend follows he will continue to do so.

[NudeTayne]

1 hour ago, matt27j said:

With the way things are trending Kizer may not be getting his job back. Hogan has the frame and protection to stay healthy and with the guys around him starting to settle in and the defense continuing to grow it's time to put someone in who can at least make throws in a timely manner. 

Now it's a no win situation for Kizer. If we lose with either him or Hogan in there we draft a QB. If Hogan wins enough games to take us out of that race then we have a QB competition next season.

Hogan has taken advantage of his opportunities since arriving with the Browns and if that trend follows he will continue to do so.

Yeah, I am seeing a bit of a Trevor Siemien in Hogan; he may just steal the job outright.  Hogan has made some boneheaded throws but overall looks like he belongs.  Though Kizer has fallen apart lately, I don't see enough to have any strong negative opinion of him.  It would be totally believable if Kizer next season was light years better than what we've seen of him thus far.