Mind Character

Never heard of him; never watched him. All I know is the dream of taking over for JC for my pre-draft favorite and now Browns Practice Squad player Willie Wright is holding on by a thread.

You lead the way, FGK. Lead us to GM victory. I'll pass. Proselytize; spread the good news of "Wirfs is a Guard" far and wide. Then, I wish fare thee well and good'morrow. If instead you join the cause of the lost and astray "Wirfs as OT1" masses, you will not find draftnik peace lest you repent of ye draftnikian trespasses.

It's very simple: If many of us think that due to positional value and OTs pivotal role that it makes sense to go Tackle over talented players like LB Isaiah Simmons, NT Derrick Brown, or even CB Jeffrey Okudah who plays at a high positional value position, why wouldn't other GMs on Teams with Tackle needs possibly/likely think that way as well. The reason it makes sense to try to get Trent Williams is because the "superstar" prospect Tackles might not be there at 10, and the consensus mocks or popular sentiments in the draftnik community overlook the Tackle needs of top 10 teams and disregard their GMs going positional value of Tackle in their mocks as a possibility over less positional value positions like LB, NT, and WR. Isaiah Simmons, Derrick Brown, and CeeDee Lamb/Jerry Jeudy are all valued over many Tackles in the draftnik mock community, but that may not be the case in the positional value minded minds of GMs. Excluding the Bengals and Washington, out of the 7 Teams ahead of the Browns 6 to 7 of them have glaring Tackle needs. 2 of the 7 (Chargers and Dolphins) have a QB1 need and are thought to be potential spots for Tua or Herbert, but one can't assume that both teams are Fine with either of the QBs. So, let's assume we can reduce the list to 6 teams instead of 7 crossing off the team that ends up with Tua. That Leaves us with: 1.) Giants 2.) Cardinals 3.) Lions 4.) Dolphins -OR- Chargers 5.) Panthers 6.) Jaguars --------- The Lions trading Darius Slay has people thinking Jeff Okudah is their guy, but no one has a clue what Patricia and co. want. If the Chargers lose out on Tua, does Tom Telesco really like Herbert giving his scouting history? Many don't think so and think he may choose to go positional value and wait for a QB next year. The Panthers losing Kuechly has people thinking Isaiah Simmons is their guy, but Matt Rhule's belief in positional value means we don't know what direction they'll go. Does Rhule believe in Greg Little as a true OT with Russell Okung or do they see Little as a Guard next year as many have assumed. At the end of the season, Doug Marrone and their FO realized they'd have to move Cam Robinson to Guard given his mighty struggles at Left Tackle. So, they have a glaring LT need. ----------- There are only 3 high quality Tackle Prospects in the draft imo: Jedrick Wills is a sure-thing superstar; Mekhi Becton has superstar upside but is a gamble with worse odds; and Andrew Thomas has superstar upside in a gap scheme. Tristan Wirfs is not a superstar Tackle prospect and many trusted scouting opinions see it as such categorizing him as a Guard instead. If the Giants, Cardinals, and 1 other team take a Tackle, where does that leave the Browns?? There's no guarantee even that the 4th Tackle on the board will be there. Trent Williams is a superstar with medical red flags, and if the Browns can get him for negligible draft capital or sign him out-right after he's cut.it would be a home run that allows them to go BPA at 10.

I agree. Good to see you've joined the growing rational mass of draftnikians.

With Jedrick Wills, Derrick Brown, Jeffrey Okudah, and Isaiah Simmons off the board the Browns should trade down. If they stayed put, the selection ranking is the following: 1.) gamble on Mekhi Becton's upside 2.) gamble on Andrew Thomas' high floor 3.) CeeDee Lamb // Jerry Jeudy

It's always respect in the football discussion and there's always room for even strong disagreements. That's what makes it fun and informative. It's better that we're not all robots in agreement. But man you just said basically, " I always scout the player, and not the Helmet logo, BUT if someone tells me the Browns are going to draft a player with a certain Helmet logo, I'm pretty Much IN on that guy, site unseen" .... All I'm saying is that's the very definition of Helmet or Logo scouting. My point was just that Wirfs deviates from what we've typically seen from the helmet/logo Iowa in terms of the highest level of technique, fundamentals, and feel/instinct for the Tackle position. And that worries me; that is, why does a guy coming from a school that produces Tackles/OLineman with expert technique and savvy instincts lack them. Is it his mentality? Is it effort? What's holding him back? Has the OLine teaching fallen off in recent years, or is he just a different type of learner? In the end, maybe it clicks for Wirfs and he attacks improving his Technique at Tackle relentlessly and becomes an all-pro Tackle prospect worthy of a top 10 selection. I just don't see it at all and I've looked with a magnifying glass. I think Connor WIlliams from Dallas is an interesting comparison as he too had all the physical tools but mentality and/or instinct concerns. They've move him inside and he's thrived some. Wirfs has far more tools and ability than Williams, but ultimately I think his path to success is clear and it's at Guard. It will be interesting to see how high he goes in the draft and what position is declared on selection. Part of me feels that he's going to fall out of the top 12, but then again he might go top 5. I have no clue. ^^^^ That is exactly

Experts say it best, "Scout the Player not the logo Helmet." To me though, it's more alarming that Tristan Wirfs went to Iowa and not some other school that has deficiencies in teaching blocking. Here is why: How do we explain that has the worst technique and natural feel for blocking out of all the Top Tackle Prospects in spite of the advanced teaching and instruction he received at Iowa? For example, if a student attends a school that is world-renown in their teaching of mathematics and physics and tons of students come from that school with advanced understanding in those areas, what then would it say about a student that spends 3 years there and consistently displays basic failures of understanding and feel for physics and mathematics? It would be like a DLineman spending 3 years under Larry Johnson Sr. at Ohio State and showing on film that they don't understand the fundamentals or natural feel technique for hand usage in run or pass defense. It speaks to either a lack of diligence in his working on his craft or more likely in my mind a clear instinctual deficiency in his natural feel for the positon. Wirfs' footwork and overall technique as a Tackle is unsure of itself, elementary, and totally unrefined. To me, it tells me a few things: 1.) He's does not have the natural feel or instincts to play the position at a high level in the pros, 2.) He was able to thrive in college due to his other-worldly athleticism and the fact that he was not challenge by DEs in college which will be different in the pros. Now, for me everything changes when putting on the lens of Guard evaluation. Then, Wirfs becomes a clear 1st round prospect in the draft with immense through the rough all-pro upside. If you haven't yet and have the time and desire to do so, check out https://youtu.be/6K-OL21I2xE It's a good summary of some of Wirfs basic technical issues. Coming from Iowa whether it be Reily Reiff, Ike Boettger, Brandon Scherrf, Bryan Bulaga, or David Bahktiari all of them were light years ahead of Wirfs in terms of technique. For me, in terms of evaluating him at Tackle, if I think of Iowa-player specific comparisons Tristan Wirfs reminds me of a poorer technique version of Robert Gallery. As a Guard I think the more comparable comparison for Wirfs is Kevin Zeitler coming out of Wisconsin as a floor; with Ceiling being an athletic Marshal Yanda.

----------- Grant Delpit is cheek cheeks in the 1st. He's cheeks in the 2nd. In the 3rd, he's meh. In the 4th, he's whatever. ---------- The best Tackle in the draft with all-pro ability as identified by a wide-array of trusted, respected traditional football scouting analysts and analytic experts. -OR- Trade up and give up draft capital for an all-world athlete Linebacker? Positional value alone says that Wills is the clear decision as there are going to be LBs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that can provide the quality and level of production/impact Simmons is likely to provide, but even with the best 2nd round Tackles their production and impact is very likely to pale in comparison to Jedrick Wills' impact/production over the course of time. The choice is clear and not just because I'm all in on Wills as the decision of OT1 over giving up draft capital to get LB1 makes sense for those that believe Mekhi Becton or whoever is their OT1.

My criteria for a 2nd Round grade on a player is the following: 2nd Round Grade Being an "Immediate Starter Year 1, Quality Starter by Year 2, and High Quality Starter by Year 3. Includes Players with Injury Flags and Off the Field Flags for which excluded them from 1st round consideration. Tua Tagovailoa, QB Alabama Javon Kinlaw, DT South Carolina Willie Gay Jr., LB Miss. St. Justin Jefferson, WR LSU Laviska Shenault, WR Colorado Netane Muti, OG Fresno St. Jalen Reagor, WR TCU Zack Baun, LB Wisconsin Ross Blacklock, DT TCU Kenneth Murray, LB Oklahoma Patrick Queen, LB LSU Zack Moss, RB Utah Prince Tega-Wanogho, OT Auburn Xavier MckInney, FS Alabama Yetur Gross-Matos, DE Penn State Tee Higgins, WR Clemson Bryce Hall, CB Virginia Justin Herbert, QB Oregon Jalen Hurts, QB Oklahoma Tristan Wirfs, OG/OT Iowa (As a Tackle; based solely on upside) Jordan Love, QB Utah State Jordan Elliot, DT Missouri Julian Okwara, DE Notre Dame AJ Epenesa, DE Iowa Matt Peart, OT Connecticut If the Browns take a Tackle in the 1st then we should look elsewhere outside of the OLine in the 2nd. If they pass on Tackle in the 1st, they likely should look to taking a Tackle in the 2nd. Either way, that means that we shouldn't take Muti at 41 given other positional value matching up with high quality players still on the board. Furthermore, both Robert Hunt and/or Daishawn Dixon are 1st round graded Guards that I have ranked higher than Muti, and they are both likely to be there at 41. I still see Hunt as a successful Tackle, but he'd be dominant at Guard as well.

My criteria for a 1st Round grade on a player is the following: 1st Round Pick Being an "Immediate High Quality Starter with Pro-Bowl and/or All-Pro Upside" imo, Tristan Wirfs categorized as a Tackle prospect is not that and does not satisfy that 1st Round grade criteria. He does fall into that criteria when considering him as a Guard. As the draftnik and popular NFL media sentiment still categorizes Wirfs as a Tackle, I then thought that I should evaluate him as such. Below are some of more specified analysis and/or evaluation of Wirfs and ultimately the reasons why I don't see the way many do.

27, 1st Round Picks with my definition of 1st Round Pick Being an "Immediate High Quality Starter with Pro-Bowl and/or All-Pro Upside" *** List excludes 1st Round Evaluation Players with serious medical flags (i.e., Tua Tagovailoa, Javon Kinlaw, & Netane Muti) and/or off-the field flags (i.e., Willie Gay Jr). *** Chase Young, DE Ohio State Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama Joe Burrow, QB LSU Jeffrey Okudah, CB Ohio State Derrick Brown, NT Auburn Isaiah Simmons, LB Clemson CeeDee Lamb, WR Oklahoma Jerry Jeudy, WR Alabama Jeff Gladney, CB TCU CJ Henderson, CB Florida Mekhi Becton, OT Louisville Robert Hunt, OT/OG Louisiana-Lafayette Antoine Winfied Jr., SS Minnesota Andrew Thomas, OT Georgia Jonathan Taylor, RB Wisconsin Denzel Mims, WR Baylor D’Andre Swift, RB Georgia Henry Ruggs III, WR Alabama Cole Kmet, TE Notre Dame Tony Brown, WR Colorado Daishawn Dixon, OG/OC San Diego St. Michael Pittman Jr., WR USC Kristian Fulton, CB LSU Jack Driscoll, OT Auburn JK Dobbins, RB Ohio State Austin Jackson, OT USC Troy Dye, LB Oregon

wrong thread post.

I definitely think Muti's injury history drops him somewhere between 32 to 50 so indeed if we wanted to sel;ect him in the 2nd round we'll likely have that opportunity.

"Make" Stream of consciousness serves the person it emanates from not those viewing the tl;dr. No one's reading the long-post anyway so it is that which it is.

Though I've since left the occasional draft season reader lurker quarters of FF readership over the last few years and stepped into the non-quality long-posting light of internet day, this is still a thread whose post I never read and never post in mainly because I have no clue or idea what the hell is going on whenever I read a random page of posts. I don't know what's going on around these parts, and feel generally like this thread is an ancient longstanding inside joke that my FF joining date was to late to ever grasp lol (that or I'm too lazy to read multiple pages).

As long as the Browns don't take Tristan Wirfs and try to play him at Tackle it's hard for me to see the selection at 10 being terrible. Jedrick Wills as I've said is clearly the best prospect by a wide margin, but as long as the Browns select one of Derrick Brown, Jeff Okudah, Isaiah Simmons, Mekhi Becton, or Andrew Thomas, the selection will make some sense.

All the one-year deals telegraph that Berry and the FO have a strategy of buying time until longer more sustainable high quality football people can be added to the roster. I do think you're right that it makes sense to go defense heavy in the draft. The only problem with that is that the draft is weak in impact players on the defensive side of the ball at the key positions we're looking to fill (DE, DT, FS, SS). There are really high quality players rounds 1 and 2 though and I honestly think Andrew Berry is going to shock people by targeting Derrick Brown, Jeffrey Okudah, or even Isaiah Simmons to a lesser extent over a Tackle.

And here after all these interactions I was thinking that you knew what was up... I love the smell of minute stream of consciousness internet response in the morning. I sent the rest of my response Titled "Part 2" to your Tweeterer account broken up in multiple twit tweeties for maximal internet effectiveness. Please "like" the or "retweetle" the twit lest you be deemed Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Fixed evaluations in the presence of more diagnostic data only reflect the inability to adjust and admit misperceptions and misevaluations. That hyperbole was based on a non-representative exposure to a limited sample of Wirf's play but most importantly was devoid of the reality check that qualitative data regarding Wirfs' mentality that gave context to his on-field performance. Once exposed to more qualitative data about Wirfs along with watching a more complete sample size of his games. I updated my evaluation. And I do months ago far before others even had really watched him, far before anyone started to question Wirfs, as well as far before people lost their minds over his combine testing numbers making him their OT1. That list above was players I absolutely believe in and my belief in Wirfs even at Guard is not absolute but it is colossally more so than Wirfs at Tackle. He has the raw ability and potential at Guard to exceed Nelson, but I have questions regarding the mystery door of his Mentality. His flash plays are otherworldly, but mentality effects the ability to improve technique, how one competes on a down to down basis, etc Ultimately, if a prospect with amazing raw ability shows bad technique but a scout finds out they got bad coaching and the player is a workaholic, that scout is likely to bet on that player's next level success. From middle school to high school athletic coaches and trainers, they all have provided context to Wirfs low lows of not playing with the dog in 'em or passive technique. Quenton Nelson neither had the athleticism or the high level flash plays of Wirfs, but he was a dog of dogs every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Wirfs will easily be better than Nelson if his competitive spirit and the dog in em will hunt. Having that dog mentality is about intuitive feel and instinctual ways of being. A deficiency of feel for the game, instincts, and natural ways of aggression are what Wirfs lacks. It's why given the full picture of things with Wirfs, months ago I no longer saw him in that Nelson category; however, he has every ounce of raw ability to exceed him.

I've recently abandoned the normative thinking of we sports fans which is to constantly do the calculus of if the decision is in the service of longterm sustainable winning, especially when it comes to the age of prospective free agents. At least I've abandoned that way of thinking in some cases like for Anthony Harris who is arguably a top 3 Safety in football still in his prime. I always want to think in terms of setting up a dynasty or a 5 year run of high level winning. Whether it be keeping Jarvis or OBJ, we're always considering this mythical time line of roster building. I think that way of thinking is good and has utility in most cases, but in this case I think it makes more sense to do than to not assuming that AB and co. believe that Harris can play at a high level for 3 years. If the calculus is that Harris can play at a top 5 level for 2 to 3 years, then I think adding him to the roster becomes a roster synergy multiplier. That is, his impact might have a wide-ranging stabilizing and uplifting effect for the defense and as a result the team in general. What matters most in that case is the draft capital the Browns have to give up. A 4th plus Huge money is going to be hard to swallow for many teams. If it's a 5th, I'd say do it. If it's a 4th, it feels like a trade lost but a win in the end.

This.

Got the #4 guy on my list. Injury prone, amazing striker, plus.leadership, coverage deficiencies, and ultra competitor. Health is always a question mark but tremendous value as a bridge SS with short term sustainable starter upside.

The Believe 18 -- My Final Refined Stand On the Table "My Guys" List of Prospects I Completely Believe In: (** Excludes Chase Young and Joe Burrow**) RBs Jonathan Taylor, RB Wisconsin D'Andre Swift, RB Georgia Zack Moss, RB Utah WRs Denzel Mims, WR Baylor Tony Brown, WR Colorado Michael Pittman Jr., WR USC TEs Cole Kmet, TE Notre Dame OTs Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama Robert Hunt, LT/RT/OG Louisiana-Lafayette Jack Driscoll, OT Auburn OGs/OCs Daishawn Dixon, OG/OC San Diego State LBs Zack Baun, LB Wisconsin Troy Dye, LB Oregon CBs Jeff Gladney, CB TCU Jeff Okudah, CB Ohio State SSs Antoine Winfield Jr., SS Minnesota STs Lynn Bowden Jr., WR/KR/PR Kentucky Joe Reed, WR/KR/PR Virginia

post deleted... wrong thread

Trade-Downs and Get Nuts Mid Free-Agency & Build Roster Mock Browns Trades Summary: 1.) Trade 1: Trade Down from 10th to 13 to 18 range receive a 2nd and 5th this year and a future 5th round pick. 2.) Trade 2: Trade Down from 13-18 to 24 to 28 range to receive a 2nd and 4th round pick this year and a future 4th round pick 3.) Trade 3: Trade Up from top of the 3rd round to Bottom part of the 2nd round in order to select Antoine Winfield Jr. Picks Gained this year: 2nd; 2nd; 2nd; 5th... Picks Gained in future drafts: 2nd; 2nd; 3rd; 4th. The Draft 1.) Jeff Gladney, CB TCU 2.) Denzel Mims, WR Baylor 2.) Jonathan Taylor, RB Wisconsin // D'Andre Swift, RB Georgia 2.) Zack Baun, LB Wisconsin 2.) Antoine Winfield Jr., SS Minnesota 3.) Robert Hunt, LT/RT/OG Louisiana-Lafayette 4.) Troy Dye, LB Oregon 4.) Jack Driscoll, OT Auburn 5.) Tony Brown, WR Colorado 6.) Daishawn Dixon, OG/OC San Diego State 7.) Trajan Bandy, NCB Miami 7.) Lynn Bowden Jr., WR/KR/PR Kentucky // Joe Reed, WR/KR/PRE Virginia ** Tony Brown, WR Colorado is now one of my favorite players in the entire draft and an all-my-guy first teamer... his competitive fight and natural feel for the game and route running is exceptional.