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2019 Draft Talk (Draft Order in OP)

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34 minutes ago, NinerNation21 said:

The Patriots have been doing it for years. You look at their team without Belichick and Brady and it's a bottom-feeder roster. As soon as those two are gone, that team is no longer good. I'm not saying that Shanahan and Jimmy G are at the level of Belichick and Brady, but my point is that a really good coach and QB can mask a lot of deficiencies. Shanahan and Jimmy G give the chance to win 9 or more games this year. 

Yes, I am going to laugh hard when this happens and Josh McDaniels is in way over his head, looking like a deer in headlights.

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9 minutes ago, Chrissooner49er said:

Yes, I am going to laugh hard when this happens and Josh McDaniels is in way over his head, looking like a deer in headlights.

They're going to go from first to last very quickly. It won't be a slow decline. They're terrible at drafting and continually acquire players that exclusively fit very specific roles that probably won't translate well to the post-Belichick era.

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1 hour ago, NinerNation21 said:

The Patriots have been doing it for years. You look at their team without Belichick and Brady and it's a bottom-feeder roster. As soon as those two are gone, that team is no longer good. I'm not saying that Shanahan and Jimmy G are at the level of Belichick and Brady, but my point is that a really good coach and QB can mask a lot of deficiencies. Shanahan and Jimmy G give the chance to win 9 or more games this year. 

You might not say it, but the Shanny/Garoppolo pairing is the only other pairing in the league where I believe both the QB and Coach have at least elite potential (closest I can say otherwise is Roethlisberger/Tomlin). I think there are a few elite QBs with good to great coaches. I think there are coaches with elite potential and good to great QBs. While I wouldn't guarantee it happens, that's why I believe Shanahan/Garoppolo, if healthy, should equal 10 wins regardless of season/scenario - I trust those two to figure it out against any odds. 

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7 hours ago, N4L said:

@Forge I understand your reasoning. We could have done more to make this a complete team this off-season, and obviously I agree the lack of an edge rusher could really be a hinderence, especially if we get into shootout type games where other teams feel like they need to throw the ball a lot to keep up. 

With that being said, our inside pass rush has the potential to be elite. Buckner made incredible strides last year with his overall game. His pad level and hand technique were greatly improved. Thomas had some nice plays when he was rushing from the inside towards the end of the year, and considering he got to camp late last year, you would hope that this year he would hone in on his craft and make a similar jump that Buckner made last year. If that happens, then maybe all we really need on the edge is someone fast with bend who can force QBs to step into the pocket? That's the hope at least. 

As others have said, it's a quarterback driven league, so if we can get elite production from Garoppolo and the rest of the offense in turn, then we will be dangerous. I mean, look at Green Bay. Their roster has been pretty poor for a number of years now. They haven't had a true workhorse RB in what, 8 years? They had good WRs, and they certainly have a talented OL right now, but they had an elite QB and a wide open offense so they won a lot of games with a sub-par defense and holes in other areas on the roster. 

To put it simply, the best way to win games with holes on your roster, is with a coach and a QB. The hope is that both are generational type guys and that they stick around for a long time. 

 

Maybe I'm just feeling so optimistic because I just rematched the Jacksonville game. Holy smokes that was a fun game 

Key word bolded. I haven't disputed that. I've said we have the potential several times. I don't count on potential though, that's all (and we also have to count on Saleh sliding Thomas inside on pass rushing downs, which I'm not 100% sure he's doing yet). Want to see it on the field. Too many times guys have flashed and then never did anything more. Armstead is a perfect example of that (and as an aside, that's an NFL thing, not a 49er thing...it just happens a lot). As J said, right now, there's a cap on that defense, and that will factor into how well we do. I'm not ready to crown Garoppolo as Rodgers or Brady or Brees, 3 of the top 12 quarterbacks of all time, that can carry really bad defenses (and even Brees couldn't do that all the time). 

Not like I'm projecting us to win 4 games. I think 7-9, 8-8 is perfectly reasonable. The roster simply isn't that great on the field yet,, or at least hasn't shown it (and in the cases they have, like Sherman, there are major questions) so I Think having a certain degree hesitation is understandable.  

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2 hours ago, NinerNation21 said:

The Patriots have been doing it for years. You look at their team without Belichick and Brady and it's a bottom-feeder roster. As soon as those two are gone, that team is no longer good. I'm not saying that Shanahan and Jimmy G are at the level of Belichick and Brady, but my point is that a really good coach and QB can mask a lot of deficiencies. Shanahan and Jimmy G give the chance to win 9 or more games this year. 

I would agree that their roster isn't great right now (though not a bottom feeder...that's super overestimating some teams out there lol), but that's just not accurate throughout their run. They have had extremely good players (multiple hall of famers) and a very solid roster for the most part. Better than it should have been maybe, because of Brady and BB, but it was still a good roster. 

There's always a chance to win more than 9 games - I admitted that in an earlier post. I think that things have to break super right, but it's possible. I just don't view it as likely. 

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2 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

You might not say it, but the Shanny/Garoppolo pairing is the only other pairing in the league where I believe both the QB and Coach have at least elite potential (closest I can say otherwise is Roethlisberger/Tomlin). I think there are a few elite QBs with good to great coaches. I think there are coaches with elite potential and good to great QBs. While I wouldn't guarantee it happens, that's why I believe Shanahan/Garoppolo, if healthy, should equal 10 wins regardless of season/scenario - I trust those two to figure it out against any odds. 

You could argue for Rogers/McCarthy, but I think that's more on Rogers than McCarthy. 

 

13 minutes ago, Forge said:

I would agree that their roster isn't great right now (though not a bottom feeder...that's super overestimating some teams out there lol), but that's just not accurate throughout their run. They have had extremely good players (multiple hall of famers) and a very solid roster for the most part. Better than it should have been maybe, because of Brady and BB, but it was still a good roster. 

There's always a chance to win more than 9 games - I admitted that in an earlier post. I think that things have to break super right, but it's possible. I just don't view it as likely. 

I definitely agree that throughout the Patriots' run, they've had some elite HOF-type players. But I'm talking about their roster as it stands now, it's just not good. They have some nice role players, but if Brady were to go down right now, I don't think they have the supporting cast to make up for that like they did a few years ago. Their run is definitely on the decline and they haven't drafted well in the last few years to really keep this going past Brady. I don't look at the 2018 Patriots roster and fear it like prior years. 

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2 hours ago, NinerNation21 said:

You could argue for Rogers/McCarthy, but I think that's more on Rogers than McCarthy. 

 

I definitely agree that throughout the Patriots' run, they've had some elite HOF-type players. But I'm talking about their roster as it stands now, it's just not good. They have some nice role players, but if Brady were to go down right now, I don't think they have the supporting cast to make up for that like they did a few years ago. Their run is definitely on the decline and they haven't drafted well in the last few years to really keep this going past Brady. I don't look at the 2018 Patriots roster and fear it like prior years. 

The Pats have gone deep into the playoffs and even won it all with rosters that are comp;arable to ours. A great coach together with a great QB gets you at least 8 wins with anything toher than a terrible roster. Add some pieces here and there and all of a sudden you're a contender.

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2 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

The Pats have gone deep into the playoffs and even won it all with rosters that are comp;arable to ours. A great coach together with a great QB gets you at least 8 wins with anything toher than a terrible roster. Add some pieces here and there and all of a sudden you're a contender.

Which is exactly where I think the Niners are closely approaching. I think our team now is in position to make some waves this year, and if we can improve our pass rushing next offseason, we should be in the position to make a deep run next season. the best is yet to come for the Jimmy G/Shanahan-led Niners.

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2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Brees/Payton should be included in that elite QB/HC pairing. 

Yup. FWIW, they've been there 12 years. They have missed the playoffs in 6 of those 12. 

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2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Brees/Payton should be included in that elite QB/HC pairing. 

I don't see this or Rodgers/McCarthy. I see both of those as elite QBs paired with great, second tier coaches. It's easier to point out with McCarthy - the Packers don't often out-scheme opponents - they rely on a supremely talented QB to win them games. McCarthy is a great coach. I just don't see him as elite. 

Payton is a bit tougher, because he can out-scheme opponents and it's not his fault the team for years routinely didn't value draft picks. I did consider him. At the same time, the Saints have routinely not won 10 games, so he would throw off the math in my previous post. I'm calling him great. 

Of course, there are very few coaches I do consider elite, so that's not much of a help to the discussion.

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I was referring to elite QB/offensive mind. Saints not making the playoffs have had little to do with their offense.

And Shanny is an elite offensive mind, but no clue what kind of HC he will be. Didn't really do anything special last year, but didn't make bonehead decisions either. Time will tell in that regard. 

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1 hour ago, Forge said:

Yup. FWIW, they've been there 12 years. They have missed the playoffs in 6 of those 12. 

Damn it, @Forge, if Sean McDermott can lead Tyrod Taylor and the Bills to 9 wins, then Kyle Shanahan and Jimmy Garoppolo can damn well get us to 11! Stop using your logic and reason and get on this damn bandwagon already. 

=(

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Well if we're talking about JG and Shanny this early then we might think about adding Goff and McVay.

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5 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

Well if we're talking about JG and Shanny this early then we might think about adding Goff and McVay.

 This is a good point that I don't want to accept. 

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