2019 NFL draft where the jags pick at 32;) (Update: pick at 7)

[.Buzz]

8 minutes ago, pwny said:

When only one team in the entire NFL has a worse record than you over the last 11 years, hardly anything you do is "common". Even if it's common, most quality teams have enough depth to survive basic injuries and still put on a good product. We lose a few players on offense and suddenly we have the longest losing streak in all of football.

One thing most organizations haven't battled for a our decade of darkness:

Blaine Gabbert followed by Chad Henne followed by Blake Bortles.

You put a solid/franchise QB on our team and we probably don't sit here talking about this at all. When you rely on everything outside of the QB position, of course injuries look larger.

Look at what is happening in Philly with the injuries. They're falling off hard. Most team do experience drops if enough injuries hit, but for us they look larger because we haven't had a QB that can carry anything in the past decade.

I love Blake as a person, and he's had his runs of 3-5 games here and there of solid play, but that's about it. 

[pwny]

1 minute ago, .Buzz said:

Look at what is happening in Philly with the injuries. They're falling off hard. Most team do experience drops if enough injuries hit, but for us they look larger because we haven't had a QB that can carry anything in the past decade.

Philly had more injuries last year than we’ve had in any year in franchise history and they won the Super Bowl. They lost their MVP candidate Quarterback and still won the Super Bowl. They’re basically the antithesis of the Jaguars excuses. 

And plenty of other teams have had no QB presence. But somehow all but one of them found ways to be better than us. Our good ol’ rival Titans don’t seem to have any trouble playing respectable football most seasons, despite having just as bad QB play over the last decade.

 

Even if we find a QB, the best this team is going to be is the equivalent of the Chargers of the last several years. 

[.Buzz]

40 minutes ago, pwny said:

Philly had more injuries last year than we’ve had in any year in franchise history and they won the Super Bowl. They lost their MVP candidate Quarterback and still won the Super Bowl. They’re basically the antithesis of the Jaguars excuses. 

And plenty of other teams have had no QB presence. But somehow all but one of them found ways to be better than us. Our good ol’ rival Titans don’t seem to have any trouble playing respectable football most seasons, despite having just as bad QB play over the last decade.

 

Even if we find a QB, the best this team is going to be is the equivalent of the Chargers of the last several years. 

I seriously would love to know all these teams around the league that are so great off depth wise. 

Us being bad for the last decade has to do with drafting poorly and having no QB. Not about us just being poor when injuries hit and we fall off.

Again, last year's Eagles sure. But that was more about Foles going on a crazy run. The guy was atrocious in KC and for the Rams prior. No one went into that season feeling like if they had to go to him they'd be fine.

This year's Eagles had injuries hit again and are now 4-6 and 3rd in an ehhh division on the outside looking in after that SB. The Falcons have had a large amount of injuries hit on defense specifically and have been atrocious because of it. They also sit at 4-6.

It's not just us. You aren't going to have depth across the board at positions and be "fine" if key players get injured.

The only way to mask large amounts of injuries is to hope your QB is good enough to do so. No way are you going to be able to just replace key starters and be "fine", imo. Maybe one or two here and there, but the play at those positions is definitely going to have a decent sized fall off.

Edited November 21, 2018 by .Buzz

[pwny]

2 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I seriously would love to know all these teams around the league that are so great off depth wise. 

Practically every team has players at multiple positions that are backups and yet are good enough to start for a little bit without being a disaster. You don’t end up with it at every position, but you have them sprinkled across the roster at various places.

Our depth at WR last year is the norm for well crafted teams across positional groups. Look at how Seattle’s secondary is stepping up despite all their lost talent, or the waves of talent that Baltimore has in their secondary. Or Pittsburgh not missing a beat when Bell sat out. Or how the Pats always seem to have 8 different starting caliber LBs. Or how the Cowboys manufacture OL success no matter who they plug in. Or the Front 7 depth in Cincy.

Or just look at how many backups become starters for other teams across the league.

This team is bottom 3 in depth at best. There’s literally no one that could go to another team and start. There’s maybe 3 players who could step up and start any game without being not only a detriment to their position, but to their entire side of the ball.

This team has one of the most talented starting defenses in football but they get their ***** handed to them the second that they lose a slot corner. Telvin missed two games last year, the only two games missed by any starter, and the entire “best defense in football” looked like they were going to **** their pants without him on the field.

This isn’t normal. This isn’t what good teams deal with. This is how teams become perpetual losers. This is how a team like the Chargers can have a top 10 QB and yet perpetually miss the playoffs year after year after year while QBs like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton and the like keep finding themselves in the playoff hunt.

Adding a QB will make it better. But it’s just going to make us 7-9 to 9-7 every year instead of 3-13 to 5-11. 

[.Buzz]

26 minutes ago, pwny said:

Practically every team has players at multiple positions that are backups and yet are good enough to start for a little bit without being a disaster. You don’t end up with it at every position, but you have them sprinkled across the roster at various places.

Our depth at WR last year is the norm for well crafted teams across positional groups. Look at how Seattle’s secondary is stepping up despite all their lost talent, or the waves of talent that Baltimore has in their secondary. Or Pittsburgh not missing a beat when Bell sat out. Or how the Pats always seem to have 8 different starting caliber LBs. Or how the Cowboys manufacture OL success no matter who they plug in. Or the Front 7 depth in Cincy.

Or just look at how many backups become starters for other teams across the league.

This team is bottom 3 in depth at best. There’s literally no one that could go to another team and start. There’s maybe 3 players who could step up and start any game without being not only a detriment to their position, but to their entire side of the ball.

This team has one of the most talented starting defenses in football but they get their ***** handed to them the second that they lose a slot corner. Telvin missed two games last year, the only two games missed by any starter, and the entire “best defense in football” looked like they were going to **** their pants without him on the field.

This isn’t normal. This isn’t what good teams deal with. This is how teams become perpetual losers. This is how a team like the Chargers can have a top 10 QB and yet perpetually miss the playoffs year after year after year while QBs like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton and the like keep finding themselves in the playoff hunt.

Adding a QB will make it better. But it’s just going to make us 7-9 to 9-7 every year instead of 3-13 to 5-11. 

Isn't that on coaching when talking about how we did more so than talent?

Like come on. Losing Hayden alone isn't going to make a top end defense go to mush. There was obviously more to it than that behind the scenes. Play accross the board lagged behind. Harrison played very well in the slot. Patmon isn't great, but he alone didn't make the defense fall off that much.

Same goes for Telvin last year. He was obviously a key piece, but the team looking that ill prepared is more on coaching than depth imo. A defense with that much talent doesn't go from historic level to confused as hell and awful based off one player being out.

As far as depth, you are just talking specific position groups. Those teams have depth issues in other spots and when injuries pop up they see a visible drop in play. You mentioned the Cowboys OL but I'm pretty sure I've heard plenty about that unit having it's ups and downs this year with a couple of the injuries to Frederick and co.

Edited November 21, 2018 by .Buzz

[pwny]

5 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Those teams have depth issues in other spots and when injuries pop up they see a visible drop in play.

Yes. But there’s a difference from not not being able to injury-proof every every group, and injury-proofing no groups.

If a good team doesn’t have depth on their OL, the OL suffers but they lean on their depth at WR to get the ball out of the QBs hands quicker. If a team doesn’t have good depth at WR and lose some WRs, they lean on their depth at RB and run the ball more. If a team is a passing team, they make sure they have depth at WR, if they’re a smash mouth team, they make sure they have a second power back behind their #1.

If the Jaguars have injuries, they don’t score a single point for three straight first halves and pretend that it’s all Leonard Fournette’s hamstrings fault, so they make a reactionary trade at midseason after the ship has already sunk.

5 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Isn't that on coaching when talking about how we did more so than talent?

Some of it is coaching, sure. But a huge portion is roster construction. 

It wasn’t coaching that dismantled our WR corps this offseason and didn’t bring any type of backup plan for Cole/Dede not progressing.

It wasn’t coaching that cut Marcedes Lewis.

It wasn’t coaching that traded away Bowanko last year.

It wasn’t coaching that thought they could build a smash mouth offense with one injury prone RB and no players anywhere on the offense to lean on when he got hurt.

It wasn’t coaching that made Abry Jones a starter last year with no backup on the roster for when he inevitably failed.

It wasn’t coaching that cheaped out on a backup QB and instead invested a “Championship year” solely on an 8 game stretch from Bortles being replicated with worse receivers.

 

EDIT: Wanted to add some more to this.

It’s a top-down thing. Everything this staff from management down to coaching ever does is plan for perfect outcomes and then they’re left with egg on their face when it doesn’t work out. There’s never a plan b. There’s never a second option. It’s either plan a works out everywhere across practically the whole roster or we’re 3-13/5-11 again.

 

”Hey, we have a QB who is shaky and only recently put together a string of good games. Should we look to replace him?” No, it worked once in 4 tries, it’s definitely going to work again.

“Hey, we signed the shaky QB to a long term deal. But he’s still not a great player. Should we have a capable backup behind him?” No, trade for the cheapest no talent QB we can find. Then draft a major project player deep in the draft who has no chance of supplanting the starter this year.

”Hey, we’re building an entire offense around this one player who had some soft tissue injuries last year. Should we maybe make sure we have another player like him on the roster?” No, cut the only guy like him and hope and pray he doesn’t get injured in game one.

“Hey, our receivers are really young and haven’t been consistent performers over any real time frame. Our #1 is also a guy with injury concerns. Should we maybe bring in a quality starter to help those guys transition?” No, cut the veteran we have, sign a career #3/4 WR to be our #2.

”Hey, we like this TE free agent, but he’s never really done anything close to impressive. Should we maybe have a second quality TE on the roster?” No, cut the veteran the first chance we get. Don’t even take the time to talk to him about his frustrations.

”Hey, our offensive line has been banged up the last several years and the backups have not performed well. Should we maybe look into adding a few new guys there in case that happens again?” No, let all the even mediocre depth walk away and keep the poor options aboard. The only “depth” we need to add is a guy we’re only drafting to become a starter for our aging RT, and he’s not allowed to play anywhere else even if another spot gets hit with a lot of injuries.

 

And it isn’t like any of this is hindsight bias either. @Tugboat and I spent practically all offseason complaining about each of these issues. Several others made note of a number of the other issues. If a couple of boneheads on a forum (no offense tuggy, but we all are) can see the iceberg in front of this team, it’s completely inexcusable that the staff didn’t take any precautions to plan for any of it. 

It would be one thing if it was just this one year, but I’ve literally been making this same argument for going on four years now. And nothing has changed. It’s the same crap over and over again. 

> Dump what little depth is on the roster

> Force mediocre depth into starting roles they aren’t ready for

>Put a high priced free agent in one hole

> Put mediocre/trash in every other hole

> Make sure we have no backup plans for shoddy decisions

“It’s built”

> Get criticized for obvious holes

“I promise this time it’s different” 

> Go 3-13

> Repeat

And the only time we end up with depth is when we add a player for a lot of money/high draft pick and they aren’t good enough to be the plan A they were originally but we can’t justify cutting them right away because of the cost. Then we get a 2017 Chris Ivory, 2017 Dante Fowler, 2017 Poz, or 2018 Abry; a plan A one year that is forced to be a plan B the next year until the team can let them go. 

. 

Next year, we’ll criticize another seven roster issues. Four of them will turn out to be complete disasters, two of them will be decisions that hold the team back, and maybe one of them will actually work out. Then we’ll get to do it all over again in 2020. I’d like to think if Dave Caldwell gets fired that somehow it would be better, but I don’t see it. Shad clearly isn’t holding anyone to this standard, so why would he bring in someone who does next time? He’s gonna bring in some charismatic/large personality that doesn’t know the first thing about basic management skills but can overwhelm him with football talk.

[DuvalsKing]

6 hours ago, pwny said:

Practically every team has players at multiple positions that are backups and yet are good enough to start for a little bit without being a disaster. You don’t end up with it at every position, but you have them sprinkled across the roster at various places.

Our depth at WR last year is the norm for well crafted teams across positional groups. Look at how Seattle’s secondary is stepping up despite all their lost talent, or the waves of talent that Baltimore has in their secondary. Or Pittsburgh not missing a beat when Bell sat out. Or how the Pats always seem to have 8 different starting caliber LBs. Or how the Cowboys manufacture OL success no matter who they plug in. Or the Front 7 depth in Cincy.

Or just look at how many backups become starters for other teams across the league.

This team is bottom 3 in depth at best. There’s literally no one that could go to another team and start. There’s maybe 3 players who could step up and start any game without being not only a detriment to their position, but to their entire side of the ball.

This team has one of the most talented starting defenses in football but they get their ***** handed to them the second that they lose a slot corner. Telvin missed two games last year, the only two games missed by any starter, and the entire “best defense in football” looked like they were going to **** their pants without him on the field.

This isn’t normal. This isn’t what good teams deal with. This is how teams become perpetual losers. This is how a team like the Chargers can have a top 10 QB and yet perpetually miss the playoffs year after year after year while QBs like Alex Smith, Andy Dalton and the like keep finding themselves in the playoff hunt.

Adding a QB will make it better. But it’s just going to make us 7-9 to 9-7 every year instead of 3-13 to 5-11. 

You’re throwing out teams with a guy or 2 missing time.. Steelers are relatively healthy Bell is sitting ok. They have a rookie who seemingly has better numbers than Bell had last and they lucked out and found a replacement at a position that is realistically one of the easiest positions to translate from college to pros without a beat. When the Cowboys line has had injuries they’ve never went more than a player miss 3 or more games without anyone missing significant time on that line until this year Frederick went down this year with season ending illness that is by far the most time that any one person has went down for significant amount of time. And they damn sure never had a time where 6 olinemen went down in a year. A lot of what your talking about is exaggerated or over blown. Eagles outside of Wentz last year didn’t have a huge injury problem they found Foles on a trash heap and he got hot at the end of the year. The Pats are the only team I’ll take from your argument where I can say I’ve seen them over come a significant amount of injuries in a year and that was in the days where they had Troy Brown playing corner that year that team was banged up I still don’t know how Beli over came a lot of those injuries. But other than that 😏 you are tripping sir. 

No one on this board has been more critical of Caldwell and his mismanagement of the draft and the hiring and refusing to fire Gus Bradley more than me. That is the real clear and cut reason why this team is struggling right now is because of Caldwell’s drafting. His top half of the draft picks have been pretty much pathetic. I despised the Bortles pick it should have been Khalil Mack.. Dante Fowler I would have taken Leonard Williams.. Ramsey was only pick he nailed and even than I felt he was about to jack that up I was nervous all the way up until the selection was made and don’t get me on Taven Bryan. The drafting at the top of his drafts have been piss poor. 

[pwny]

3 minutes ago, DuvalsKing said:

Eagles outside of Wentz last year didn’t have a huge injury problem

Lol

Jason Peters

Jordan Hicks

Darren Sproles

Chris Maragos

Caleb Sturgis

were all on IR

Jason Peters alone is better than anyone we have on our entire offense, let alone guys that we lost.

 

Lane Johnson

Ronald Darby

Fletcher Cox

Zach Ertz

Nigel Bradham

Rodney McCleud 

Jaylen Watkins

Rasul Douglas

All missed games.

And those are guys who were all actual contributors, not the #12 OL that you’re going to pretend was so crucial to our team’s success because it brings a total number up to 6 even though it only actually impacts two positions.

The rest of your post is missing a point I already explained, so I’m not going to do it again. 

[pwny]

I also gave them props this offseason for adding depth in the draft.

I take it back. I no longer think Taven Bryan, Ronnie Harrison and the like were brought in to be developmental pieces. I now fully believe they truly thought our biggest need going into the draft was to save cap space. They weren’t insurance, depth and growth pieces. They were and still are plan A for 2019, so they can justify cutting Malik and a Safety in a salary dump. 

[Tugboat]

On 20/11/2018 at 2:53 PM, pwny said:

Come on Flux. This team doesn't plan for any injuries anywhere. Across the entire roster, how many guys do you actually think can be effective spot starters for injury? There's like three, and one of them was traded for after an injury crippled the offense. That's a big problem.

Yeah. This OLine went in the tank well before all the rest of these injuries piled up.  When Cam went down, that was when this line broke.  They had one potentially serviceable stopgap depth option to handle in in Wells...maybe, and it's unfortunate that he got injured as well.  But it's really 1 injury that crippled our OLine, and a 2nd that rendered it completely incapable of functioning.

Not good, when it's a unit that is supposed to be the bread and butter of your team's plan to "shelter" your bad quarterback.  You want extra insurance for critical stress/failure points like that, and they didn't have it.

 

On 20/11/2018 at 7:40 PM, .Buzz said:

One thing most organizations haven't battled for a our decade of darkness:

Blaine Gabbert followed by Chad Henne followed by Blake Bortles.

You put a solid/franchise QB on our team and we probably don't sit here talking about this at all. When you rely on everything outside of the QB position, of course injuries look larger.

Look at what is happening in Philly with the injuries. They're falling off hard. Most team do experience drops if enough injuries hit, but for us they look larger because we haven't had a QB that can carry anything in the past decade.

I love Blake as a person, and he's had his runs of 3-5 games here and there of solid play, but that's about it. 

That's true.  A Franchise QB (and an adaptable Coach/Coordinator) can help mask a lot of other deficiencies and gives you a lot more flexibility in adjusting your gameplan to "hide" injury problems better.  They really do change everything.

But we don't have one.  We have a bad QB in Bortles that they built a team to "shelter".  But when you don't have that capable quarterback...like you said, you have to count on everything going right to have success.  Which is where high quality depth is just all that measure more important to maintain things as close to "everything going right" as possible, even through the inevitability of injuries.  ie. Like i said above, if building a mauling OLine to pound the ball is your "plan" to protect your Bortle...you'd darn well better have some really good insurance for that linchpin of your offense in case of injuries.  And they clearly didn't have that when push came to shove and Cam (who was banged up plenty last year as well) ended up having a more significant injury.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

Can we change the thread title? We are closer to picking 33 than 32 lol

[.Buzz]

 

[.Buzz]

Also, can we please change the name of this thread to just Jaguars draft thread or something? Please...

[Tugboat]

7 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

 

No time to get down, 'cause we movin' up.  Wooo.  Back to where we can have really focused draft discussions on just a dozen or so guys at the very top of the draft!  Silver linings!

[Adrenaline_Flux]

11 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Also, can we please change the name of this thread to just Jaguars draft thread or something? Please...

I've left it as a reminder not to have objectively dumb and cocky thread titles.