2018 Draft Eligible EDGE/RUSH Thread

[MSURacerDT55]

5 hours ago, jetskid007 said:

I think Chubb is much more refined as a pass rusher at this point. Chubb is an artist, whereas Ogbah was somewhat of a raw canvas. Most notable difference is Chubb's motor; also shows much better instincts; plays with more balance; has a higher football intellect (on tape at least). Chubb isn't the most athletic guy out there, but he reminds me of Derek Barnett in a bigger, longer body. He just seems like a player who will be a rock solid starter for years, whereas Ogbah was more of a projection. That's usually the difference between a full round. 

For the sake of argument, from what I picked up on Chubb is that he only has one gear, I 100% disagree that he is an artist, he has a few moves but no where near enough to call him an artist and as far as instincts and football intellect (which are pretty much the same in this context) how do you quantify football intelligence outside of sniffing out screens and reverses or play actions enough to say one player is better than the other at it? They both did similar things as prospects. 

Also, Ogbah wasn't a project, he had a first round grade by many draft analysts, the one thing I agree with you on is that Chubb is closer to a Derek Barnett, Charles Harris, Taco Charlton, Emmanel Ogbah type of prospect than he is a Myles Garrett, Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack,Von Miller types. People, look deeper, don't just look at names, the evidence is there. For where he is going to be picked I almost guarantee the will disappoint (7-9 sack guy as opposed to a 12 -14 sack guy his draft position would suggest), especially if he goes to a team where it will be all on his shoulders

And I will gladly stand behind my words.

[Jlash]

2 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Chubb is closer to a Derek Barnett, Charles Harris, Taco Charlton, Emmanel Ogbah type of prospect

I don't think Taco Charlton is anything like the other 3 you just mentioned. 

[jetskid007]

2 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

For the sake of argument, from what I picked up on Chubb is that he only has one gear, I 100% disagree that he is an artist, he has a few moves but no where near enough to call him an artist and as far as instincts and football intellect (which are pretty much the same in this context) how do you quantify football intelligence outside of sniffing out screens and reverses or play actions enough to say one player is better than the other at it? They both did similar things as prospects. 

Also, Ogbah wasn't a project, he had a first round grade by many draft analysts, the one thing I agree with you on is that Chubb is closer to a Derek Barnett, Charles Harris, Taco Charlton, Emmanel Ogbah type of prospect than he is a Myles Garrett, Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack,Von Miller types. People, look deeper, don't just look at names, the evidence is there. For where he is going to be picked I almost guarantee the will disappoint (7-9 sack guy as opposed to a 12 -14 sack guy his draft position would suggest), especially if he goes to a team where it will be all on his shoulders

And I will gladly stand behind my words.

His hand usage is far better than I thought Ogbah's. Honestly, I think he's better technically with one hand than Ogbah was with two. I kind of see where you say one speed rusher, but I've seen him stay patient to set up the offensive lineman before engaging. Chubb knows how to manipulate lineman to his will, which isn't common for college defensive lineman. Routinely I saw him bait offensive lineman off base and utilize his arms to get the opponents hands off of him. And I disagree when you speak about instincts/intellect; Chubb doesn't just rush where he's told to (much like Ogbah did); he does a good job of finding the right gap and popping into it. Also rarely gets faked, which I found impressive. He's a very focused pass rusher who trusts his eyes and rather than try to overpower every snap, he seeks to "fool" his opponent in order to get to the QB. He's a big pain in the rear for OL to deal with. I would post gifs if I knew how to do that kind of stuff on here lol. 

It's not like Ogbah, but coming out he was more of a bull rusher who won based on pursuit and sheer athletic ability. He penetrated whatever gap or alignment he was asked to, but you didn't get the sense that he was improvisational as a pass rusher. I think Chubb is. 

[MSURacerDT55]

8 minutes ago, Jlash said:

I don't think Taco Charlton is anything like the other 3 you just mentioned. 

That's fair

 

3 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

His hand usage is far better than I thought Ogbah's. Honestly, I think he's better technically with one hand than Ogbah was with two. I kind of see where you say one speed rusher, but I've seen him stay patient to set up the offensive lineman before engaging. Chubb knows how to manipulate lineman to his will, which isn't common for college defensive lineman. Routinely I saw him bait offensive lineman off base and utilize his arms to get the opponents hands off of him. And I disagree when you speak about instincts/intellect; Chubb doesn't just rush where he's told to (much like Ogbah did); he does a good job of finding the right gap and popping into it. Also rarely gets faked, which I found impressive. He's a very focused pass rusher who trusts his eyes and rather than try to overpower every snap, he seeks to "fool" his opponent in order to get to the QB. He's a big pain in the rear for OL to deal with. I would post gifs if I knew how to do that kind of stuff on here lol. 

It's not like Ogbah, but coming out he was more of a bull rusher who won based on pursuit and sheer athletic ability. He penetrated whatever gap or alignment he was asked to, but you didn't get the sense that he was improvisational as a pass rusher. I think Chubb is. 

I appreciate your well thought out, film-based response 

[jetskid007]

2 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

That's fair

 

I appreciate your well thought out, film-based response 

As they say, football is a game of inches 

 

[lark25]

Anyone want to run the Waldo numbers?  Based on the initial look I'm backing in Landry and Hubbard as  my picks.

Landry and Hubbard are the guys with elite quickness and solid explosion numbers.  0.9 is usually the explosion cutoff, above 0.95 is pretty good (above 1.05 is freakish - Myles Garrett level) and both of those guys are at 0.97.  

Both guys are below the 1.1 twitch benchmark (basically shuttle/3cone demonstrating lateral movement v straight line speed) with Hubbard likely to be approx 0.97 (pending 10yd split, but he wont be lightning fast in a straight line) and Landry at 1.  note that Joey Bosa had a score of 0.92 which is one of the best.   

Both guys are easily "sub 7" 3 cone guys throwing out 6.84 (Hubbard) and 6.88 (Landry).  

I don't want to diminish Chubb, absolutely look at the intangibles, hand usage etc but in terms of athletic traits that 3 cone is rough showing a straight line guy,

[jrry32]

16 hours ago, lark25 said:

Anyone want to run the Waldo numbers?  Based on the initial look I'm backing in Landry and Hubbard as  my picks.

Landry and Hubbard are the guys with elite quickness and solid explosion numbers.  0.9 is usually the explosion cutoff, above 0.95 is pretty good (above 1.05 is freakish - Myles Garrett level) and both of those guys are at 0.97.  

Both guys are below the 1.1 twitch benchmark (basically shuttle/3cone demonstrating lateral movement v straight line speed) with Hubbard likely to be approx 0.97 (pending 10yd split, but he wont be lightning fast in a straight line) and Landry at 1.  note that Joey Bosa had a score of 0.92 which is one of the best.   

Both guys are easily "sub 7" 3 cone guys throwing out 6.84 (Hubbard) and 6.88 (Landry).  

I don't want to diminish Chubb, absolutely look at the intangibles, hand usage etc but in terms of athletic traits that 3 cone is rough showing a straight line guy,

Hubbard is a tough guy for me to get a bead on.

[MSURacerDT55]

7 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Hubbard is a tough guy for me to get a bead on.

Good football player, great technique, disciplined, slightly overblown athleticism. Safe guy who will productive and will be around for a while

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Good football player, great technique, disciplined, slightly overblown athleticism. Safe guy who will productive and will be around for a while

I was disappointed because He doesn't really have a go-to win quickly move and didn't look as good against the run as I expected. He actually looked better to me standing up. I think he's a better fit in the 3-4. He's an expert hand-fighter with an outstanding motor, but I wish he had a dominant trait. He looks to me to be a more well-rounded version of Paul Kruger.

[MSURacerDT55]

31 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I was disappointed because He doesn't really have a go-to win quickly move and didn't look as good against the run as I expected. He actually looked better to me standing up. I think he's a better fit in the 3-4. He's an expert hand-fighter with an outstanding motor, but I wish he had a dominant trait. He looks to me to be a more well-rounded version of Paul Kruger.

His versatility is underrated, he played well in coverage on the outside as well he also played 3 tech at times, he even beat Quenton Nelson for a sack one on one, his strength is definitely pass rushing and can be coached up on other areas, depending on situation he can flourish. 

[Danger]

So it just me, or is Harold Landry having a Von Miller-esque rise leading up to the draft?

[reamer]

1 hour ago, Danger said:

So it just me, or is Harold Landry having a Von Miller-esque rise leading up to the draft?

Landry is a good athlete, but Miller was out of this world. I don't see Landry even going top ten, let alone second overall.  Landry should be a comfortable first round pick, but I don't think he's the consensus top guy. (Also. That 2011 draft was absolutely stocked with high end talent. Pretty incredible to look back on those players.) 

[BleedTheClock]

6 hours ago, Danger said:

So it just me, or is Harold Landry having a Von Miller-esque rise leading up to the draft?

No. He had a good combine, that's all. Von Miller had GM's salivating. Harold Landry isn't better than Chubb or Davenport. Hell, I'd probably take Lorenzo Carter over him too.

 

He gets murdered in the run game. It's not like his effort isn't there...it's more that he just has no arse behind him.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said:

No. He had a good combine, that's all. Von Miller had GM's salivating. Harold Landry isn't better than Chubb or Davenport. Hell, I'd probably take Lorenzo Carter over him too.

 

He gets murdered in the run game. It's not like his effort isn't there...it's more that he just has no arse behind him.

Lorenzo Carter?

[BleedTheClock]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Lorenzo Carter?

Yeah. A superfreak athlete who was significantly better against the run. I never saw Carter get demolished like I saw happen to Landry. Carter isn't as advanced as a pass rusher, but he's got more juice as a pure edge and is 100x better in terms of a gap defender. I was extremely high on Carter before his crazy combine. Landry is a 2nd round pick all the way in my opinion. He'll probably go higher, but I have him solidly in the 2nd round.