Broncofan Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 DC should have gone with character origin movies first, then ensemble pieces next. But in the rush to catch up to the MCU, they threw out movies with characters that casual fans hardly knew - not accounting for the fact that you can't really do that with over half the cast, and then have a cohesive movie where the audience cares for what happens. And certainly can't develop a nuanced and complex Black Hat, which is almost always required to really elevate these kind of movies. It's unfortunate that DC wasn't patient enough to push this movie and a Flash origin piece (I guess they thought the TV series might do it, but that's hardly a good premise if that was it). Cyborg could have been introduced into JL no problem, since his genesis and role was integral to that story. But really, everyone else on JL was better to have a fleshed out background before. Oh well. Having said that, I'll definitely go and see this. The reviews are surprising, but after the whole Ep8 backlash, I'm fairly confident that the reviews can't be a PR hack job. Fairly confident...not the same as very confident, though, but it's worth checking it out - I mean, if I went to JL..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 DC just didn't know what to do. It originally wasn't supposed to be a shared universe from what I've read, just Superman's story with other DC characters as subplots and to help feed into the main plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Broncofan said: DC should have gone with character origin movies first, then ensemble pieces next. But in the rush to catch up to the MCU, they threw out movies with characters that casual fans hardly knew - not accounting for the fact that you can't really do that with over half the cast, and then have a cohesive movie where the audience cares for what happens. And certainly can't develop a nuanced and complex Black Hat, which is almost always required to really elevate these kind of movies. Honestly I think one of the big reasons Avengers was so huge was that we all saw them individually first and got hyped to see them all together because we already knew them all. Much more weight behind the team up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: Honestly I think one of the big reasons Avengers was so huge was that we all saw them individually first and got hyped to see them all together because we already knew them all. Much more weight behind the team up. Exactly. We cared about all of them. We even knew who Loki was. That made a TON of difference. For casual fans, that makes a ton of difference. DC didn't get that it wasn't the ensemble, it was the leadup to making us identify and care for the group that made it a blockbuster (that and a fantastic direction / writing job by Whedon, and stellar performances all around). Hulk was the only new character (yeah, yeah, I know there were 2 prior movies, but not with Ruffalo). THAT was the script to follow. Instead DC put the cart before the horse. SMH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 There have been plenty of successful ensemble movies that didn't have prequels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, seminoles1 said: There have been plenty of successful ensemble movies that didn't have prequels. You are comparing apples to pineapples. Traditional ensemble movies have a cast of characters that build off each other and are more or less designed to play off the other characters. For Superhero movies, its much more about each individual character. Especially with DC as their bigs are iconic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gnat Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 17 hours ago, Deadpulse said: You are comparing apples to pineapples. Traditional ensemble movies have a cast of characters that build off each other and are more or less designed to play off the other characters. For Superhero movies, its much more about each individual character. Especially with DC as their bigs are iconic. Agreed, especially for DC's bigs. If they wanted to do some of the lesser characters, like a Teen Titans movie, you definitely don't need origin movies for all of those characters, but with the personalities involved in Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. you kind of need to set them up, but they also have the issue of the characters when they are being set-up not having that great movies because they make them too over powered and too flawless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 No, you don't. Plenty of the animated movies are just fine without having solo movies to set them up. Same thing with the first 3 episodes of the Justice League series. Marvel did it and it worked...but that doesn't mean it can't work without entire solo movies. Snyder had backstory in Justice League for Aquaman with Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman set up already. It would have been fine...then they butchered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 3 hours ago, seminoles1 said: Marvel did it and it worked... Marvel did it by using characters unknown to anyone outside of the hardcore comic fans. Not just comic fans, HARDCORE comic fans. They shaped those characters as they needed to create a cohesive ensemble. That fits what you were alluding to earlier with ensemble movies. However with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc you cant take those big creative liberties like you could with Guardians to make the pieces not only fit together, but fit your narrative. The GotG we got on screen is nothing like what was in the comics prior to the live action run (they have since mimic'd the movie versions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43M Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 The issue wasn't just that they didn't do more individual superhero movies, but also that the ones they did weren't exactly well-received except for Wonder Woman. Man of Steel wasn't bad, but didn't do enough to draw fans in enough to make them care about the character enough. Batman v Superman could have served well to set up Batman, and actually did a semi-decent job, but could have done so much better. The shortcomings of Suicide Squad and Batman v Superman killed a lot of excitement for Justice League. If those movies had done well and been well received, I think people would have been a lot more excited for Justice League... and then it obviously didn't help the Justice League was done so poorly. Both Batman v Superman and Justice League tried to do way too much in a short amount of time, and it hurt the movies a lot. if all the movies that came before Justice League had been done better, and they had maybe done the Aquaman or Flash movie before it, Justice League would have stood a better shot... because they wouldn't have had to set up so much in the first half of Justice League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 The order in which they made the movies doesn't matter. The quality of the movies brought everything down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fl0nkerton Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 https://www.vulture.com/2018/12/jason-momoa-tore-pages-out-of-amber-heards-books.html Ugh, he seems...kind of annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Bullet Club said: The order in which they made the movies doesn't matter. The quality of the movies brought everything down. When you think in simple terms, absolutely. However direction and planning for such a large project is imperative and the order definitely matters and could have affected the quality on the back end. Its all hypothetical of course, because a different order could still make the finished products worse than what we got. My only point here is that the order does have an effect on the process and therefore the end product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Off to a great start in China. $25 million opening day and expected to hit $80 million for the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: When you think in simple terms, absolutely. However direction and planning for such a large project is imperative and the order definitely matters and could have affected the quality on the back end. Its all hypothetical of course, because a different order could still make the finished products worse than what we got. My only point here is that the order does have an effect on the process and therefore the end product. If order matters at all, which I don't agree with, it's an obscenely small amount. The order of the movies is a separate issue from direction and planning. MoS, BvS, SS, WW, JL is a completely acceptable order to put things in...if the plan is good and the movies are good. DC had no clue what they were doing so the movies were bad and it bombed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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