Update: Urban Meyer suspended 3 games

[JammerHammer21]

Zach Smith has definitely proven to be a trustworthy person after saying things like I never abused my wife.

[Leader]

2 hours ago, Raves said:

Well based on the release from Meyer he knew, reported it, and with the police department not investigating/pressing charges, didnt fire Zach Smith nor did anyone above him say he has to go. I doubt he would be lying in the release because that just seals his fate and wouldve been easily enough verified/disproven.

Well - if thats true - he needs to arrange a settlement and disappear.

What you just detailed was nothing but a typical administrative coverup. For some reason these organizations deem circling the wagons and covering / hushing up about the "crime" - preferrable to just excising the cancer at the time and moving on. Whats happening now is worse for OSU than if it had been addressed at the time: a domestic violence abuser let go.

The PS fans also played the "he reported it" card - but its a loser. Just like Paterno - if Meyer told whomever these higher ups were/are "I want this guy out of here" - he'd have been let go. Done. Over. A two/three day story - at the longest. But no - apparently - he never made such a declaration - if he in fact made much of a stink at all  -  which is EXACTLY how these things occur, get covered up / passed over - and happen again.

Its simple math. Not a difficult equation: if he knew and did nothing about it - he (and anybody else who did nothing) - should be gone - and apparently, theres some sort of "institutional" coverup core at OSU cause they had a BIG issue with the wrestling team doctor  -  and surprise, surprise - nobody (SUPPOSEDLY) knew anything. They dont get high marks for originality. 

 

[Raves]

1 hour ago, BigD88 said:

Are people forgetting or just ignoring the fact that Urban also stated that he knew about Smith’s incident in 2009, and advised the Smiths to get counseling? 

If this whole situation was just about one 2015 incident that was reported up the chain, no charges filed, he said/she said and then nothing comes of it - then fine. I could understand the stance that Meyer’s only wrongdoing was lying to the media and would agree that he shouldn’t lose his job.

But, we know factually that 2015 is at least the second time that Urban got wind of potential domestic violence against Smith and kept him on staff. Even if the same protocol is followed and no charges are filed - at that point, he’s simply completely incompetent from a pure risk management/ personnel standpoint by keeping Smith on staff. Alarm bells at that point should be blaring and a smart guy in charge of a program like this should know that it’s simply not smart to keep a guy like that on staff, regardless of if his guilt or innocence in an official legal capacity. Because even IF he’s not actively “covering up” or concealing abuse, etc., he’s aware of a trend that could bring a lot of potential issues from a PR standpoint to his program, and bring things onto the brink of no-return from a perception standpoint. At the VERY least. 

And this is all IF you 100% believe Meyer’s version of events exactly as he states (despite him being caught in an outright lie about this just last week); and IF you believe that his wife didn’t tell him any details of her talks with Courtney Smith, including the photos of bodily injury; and IF you believe that none of the coaches’ wives shared knowledge of Courtney’s abuse with their husbands on staff; and IF you take at face value the response from the Powell PD that the initial report of an arrest in 2015 was a clerical error; and IF you believe that Urban had zero knowledge of his ‘life coach’ and Earle Bruce meeting with Courtney Smith to convince her to not press charges when the first instance of abuse took place.

 

This is not about one single instance of a properly reported allegation of abuse 3 years ago and a little white lie about it to the media. This is at the very least, a complete blunder in risk and personnel management by keeping someone on staff with multiple serious allegations against him, opening up his program to a firestorm of negative, unnecessary publicity - or worse - as there’s still plenty of additional questions to be answered.

It would be weird for an independent police department thats not associated with the university to try and cover this up, so taking the police at their word should be a given.  If Urban followed procedures and reported it, outside of a potential PR issue, what other risks are there as long as proper procedure is followed.  You can dislike the decision to keep an accused domestic abuser on staff, but its not actually a fireable offense.  If thats the case quite a few people should be fired in the NFL for allowing convicted Domestic Abusers back onto the field, regardless of the BS claim that "oh they've been punished for their actions already."  Either you get rid of everyone based on even accusatuons and never let anyone actually found guilty back or you let due process happen and then allow those that have served their punishment come back.

1 hour ago, Texasmade said:

A.) Taking Urban Meyer's words at face value, a week after getting caught in a pretty damning lie, a lie which he's already admitted to, is a dubious proposition at best. His benefit of the doubt is gone. If he reported it, and to be fair he may have, but if he did there would be documentation of it. That information will come out in due time. Until it does, he doesn't deserve any real benefit of the doubt in assuming that the words coming out of his mouth aren't bull****. 

B.) His statement was worded as ambiguous as possible, and probably for good reason. At no point did it mention when he knew and/or when he found out or when he reported it. If he found out a week ago, reported it, then fired him, then yes he's probably in the clear. If he found out in 2015, reported it a week ago after it surfaced publicly, then fired him, well then he's got a problem. It may not be a Title IX problem per say, but there's no amount shout to rid Urban Meyer or the University of that stain.

A)  Making the statement that he reported it you kind of should expect there to be proof that he did.  Anything less and he is guaranteeing that not only was he getting fired but he likely wouldnt get a job in coaching or the media ever again.

B)  If nots a Title IX issue and the police were already investigating, what more did you want Meyer to do?  You fire Zach Smith and it doesnt keep him from being able to beat his ex-wife, if anything it would give him more time/opportunities to find a way to.  Im not saying you keep a domestic abuser employed to keep him away from the abused, but firing Zach Smith does nothing to change the situation for a postive, especislly if in 2015 it was just accusations where it was reported and police said there was not an investigation or arrest.

[Raves]

6 minutes ago, Leader said:

Well - if thats true - he needs to arrange a settlement and disappear.

What you just detailed was nothing but a typical administrative coverup. For some reason these organizations deem circling the wagons and covering / hushing up about the "crime" - preferrable to just excising the cancer at the time and moving on. Whats happening now is worse for OSU than if it had been addressed at the time: a domestic violence abuser let go.

The PS fans also played the "he reported it" card - but its a loser. Just like Paterno - if Meyer told whomever these higher ups were/are "I want this guy out of here" - he'd have been let go. Done. Over. A two/three day story - at the longest. But no - apparently - he never made such a declaration - if he in fact made much of a stink at all  -  which is EXACTLY how these things occur, get covered up / passed over - and happen again.

Its simple math. Not a difficult equation: if he knew and did nothing about it - he (and anybody else who did nothing) - should be gone - and apparently, theres some sort of "institutional" coverup core at OSU cause they had a BIG issue with the wrestling team doctor  -  and surprise, surprise - nobody (SUPPOSEDLY) knew anything. They dont get high marks for originality. 

 

What exactly was there to cover up?  There was an accusation, it gets reported, police say there is no investigation or arrests.

Also with the Penn State situation the problem was IIRC they didnt inform police and then continued to provide the venue for Sandusky's football camp that he used to find and molest children.  So Penn State not only knew, but provided the environment for these actions to take place.  With Ohop State they didnt provide Zach Smith any additional opportunities to abuse his exwife.  If they fired him, his opportunity to continue abusing his exwife is still the same or even moreso.  Its not a justification to not firing Smith in 2015, just stating where the situations are different.

[BigD88]

7 minutes ago, Raves said:

It would be weird for an independent police department thats not associated with the university to try and cover this up, so taking the police at their word should be a given.  If Urban followed procedures and reported it, outside of a potential PR issue, what other risks are there as long as proper procedure is followed.  You can dislike the decision to keep an accused domestic abuser on staff, but its not actually a fireable offense.  If thats the case quite a few people should be fired in the NFL for allowing convicted Domestic Abusers back onto the field, regardless of the BS claim that "oh they've been punished for their actions already."  Either you get rid of everyone based on even accusatuons and never let anyone actually found guilty back or you let due process happen and then allow those that have served their punishment come back.

It would be weird - not unprecedented (see FSU and Tallahassee PD re Jameis Winston), and the timing is suspicious given that McMurphy received the original report before the media firestorm, and then the change was made right after, and they’re not saying anything to the publicly about it. That at least warrants some questions. But fine, give them the benefit of the doubt. There’s still all the other questions where at least, in my opinion, it’s a pretty big stretch to believe that Shelly didn’t share the details with Urban in 2015, that none of the other coaches’ wives shared this with their spouses, that Urban had no knowledge at all of his mentor and his life coach meeting with Courtney Smith in 2009 to convince her not to press charges, the list goes on.

Let’s not forget assistant coaches are fired for much less egregious off-field issues (didnt VT afire someone over infidelity?) Keeping an accused domestic abuser on staff on its own is not a fireable offense. But keeping him on staff after being made aware of multiple accusations and as a result, inviting a hellstorm of negative publicity and subsequent reputational damage to your program is certainly reasonable grounds for being dismissed. Now, is it grounds for dismissal “for cause?” I’m not well-versed enough in the particulars of contract law to weigh in. But he certainly wouldn’t be some sympathetic martyr If those are the grounds for his dismissal.

And again, that’s assuming the very best case scenario involving Meyer when it comes to the handful of suspicious, unanswered questions related to this saga.

[BigD88]

18 minutes ago, Raves said:

What exactly was there to cover up?  There was an accusation, it gets reported, police say there is no investigation or arrests.

Also with the Penn State situation the problem was IIRC they didnt inform police and then continued to provide the venue for Sandusky's football camp that he used to find and molest children.  So Penn State not only knew, but provided the environment for these actions to take place.  With Ohop State they didnt provide Zach Smith any additional opportunities to abuse his exwife.  If they fired him, his opportunity to continue abusing his exwife is still the same or even moreso.  Its not a justification to not firing Smith in 2015, just stating where the situations are different.

The only documented incident involving Penn State while Sandusky was on staff was in 1998, and that was turned over to police. The police even orchestrated a sting operation at the victim’s house, but then didn’t press charges. Sandusky retired the next year and never held a football camp again.  (Also, he found his victims via his charity, where he groomed at-risk kids and preyed on them over time. Not just snatched random athletes at football camps and abused them once. But that’s a rabbit hole we don’t need to go down in this thread).

2001 (the McQueary episode) is a whole slew of other circumstances but not exactly apples-to-apples here because he was already retired and not on staff.

Regarding OSU - the statement about “If they fired him, his opportunity to continue abusing his exwife is still the same or even moreso...” as callous as it may sound, that’s not the job of OSU. That’s the worry of the police. The concern for OSU as an entity is minimizing risk and avoiding unnecessary risk on staff. Taking on additional, unneeded risk and having it blow up in your face often leads in dismissal in any industry.

[Raves]

9 minutes ago, BigD88 said:

It would be weird - not unprecedented (see FSU and Tallahassee PD re Jameis Winston), and the timing is suspicious given that McMurphy received the original report before the media firestorm, and then the change was made right after, and they’re not saying anything to the publicly about it. That at least warrants some questions. But fine, give them the benefit of the doubt. There’s still all the other questions where at least, in my opinion, it’s a pretty big stretch to believe that Shelly didn’t share the details with Urban in 2015, that none of the other coaches’ wives shared this with their spouses, that Urban had no knowledge at all of his mentor and his life coach meeting with Courtney Smith in 2009 to convince her not to press charges, the list goes on.

Let’s not forget assistant coaches are fired for much less egregious off-field issues (didnt VT afire someone over infidelity?) Keeping an accused domestic abuser on staff on its own is not a fireable offense. But keeping him on staff after being made aware of multiple accusations and as a result, inviting a hellstorm of negative publicity and subsequent reputational damage to your program is certainly reasonable grounds for being dismissed. Now, is it grounds for dismissal “for cause?” I’m not well-versed enough in the particulars of contract law to weigh in. But he certainly wouldn’t be some sympathetic martyr If those are the grounds for his dismissal.

And again, that’s assuming the very best case scenario involving Meyer when it comes to the handful of suspicious, unanswered questions related to this saga.

I made the mistake earlier of trying to connect things myself without using what presented by an individual with facts/own thoughts that ended up makong me look bad and I'm trying to keep it as close to fact based as possible now.

It is true that it has happened but those departments came under so much scrutiny that it would be stupid for the Powell PD to so after seeing the aftermath there.  Also IIRC those were happening in the moment, mot 3 years in the past that they swept things under the rug.

But the thing is accusations dont make things true and even supposed photo evidence isn't always true.  In this case it appears to be, but we can see from the Zeke case where things aren't always what the seem.  Also I'm not sure where the McCoy situation is at but if it turns out thag McCoy was completely innocent thats another instance, but you need to let due process run its course.  Firing the coach over allegations when the police arent investigating and there wasnt an arrest opens up the university to a lawsuit.  Also if VT fired for infedility then they probably had both proof of the affair and a morality clause in the contract, else the firing wouldve ended up in a lawsuit or settlement.

[WeaponX]

Reddit thread up where someone found articles confirming that OSU extended Smith’s contract twice between 2015 and 2018.

- Urban knew about the incident in 2009 at Florida.

- Courtney dropped the charges in 2009 after a visit from Zach’s grandfather/Urban’s mentor.

- Urban allowed him a second chance and kept him on staff at Florida.

- When Urban took the job at Ohio State, he brought Zach on the staff.

- 2015 incident occurs and Urban is made aware of it immediately thereafter.

- Zach is kept on staff with his third chance and Urban claims he reported his knowledge of the incident. To who is unclear.

- Between 2015 and 2018, Zach’s contract was renewed two times. The narrative that Urban and OSU couldn’t get rid of him without cause is invalidated by this. It wasn’t a case of retaining him for fear of wrongful termination. They simple could have chosen to not renew his contract.

- 2018 incident occurs and Zach is fired after his arrest.

- At Big Ten Media Day, Urban denies being aware of the 2015 incident and questions why someone would even report that.

- Evidence is provided showing Urban did know and Urban confirms that he lied at Big Ten Media Day but tries to characterize it as being confused and that he misspoke.

 

 

 

These are not the actions of someone taking domestic violence as a serious issue. These are the actions of a man protecting his mentor’s grandson and protecting his own legacy over the victim of domestic abuse. 

[Raves]

16 minutes ago, BigD88 said:

The only documented incident involving Penn State while Sandusky was on staff was in 1998, and that was turned over to police. The police even orchestrated a sting operation at the victim’s house, but then didn’t press charges. Sandusky retired the next year and never held a football camp again.  (Also, he found his victims via his charity, where he groomed at-risk kids and preyed on them over time. Not just snatched random athletes at football camps and abused them once. But that’s a rabbit hole we don’t need to go down in this thread).

2001 (the McQueary episode) is a whole slew of other circumstances but not exactly apples-to-apples here because he was already retired and not on staff.

Regarding OSU - the statement about “If they fired him, his opportunity to continue abusing his exwife is still the same or even moreso...” as callous as it may sound, that’s not the job of OSU. That’s the worry of the police. The concern for OSU as an entity is minimizing risk and avoiding unnecessary risk on staff. Taking on additional, unneeded risk and having it blow up in your face often leads in dismissal in any industry.

Thanks for the clarification on the Penn State issue, I wasnt completely sure.

My only point with my statement about firing him would be inregards to the Colorado issue where part of their statement along with stating that it wasnt Title IX was that their inaction didnt create a situation for further abuse to occur.  Obviously keeping him on staff was a huge powder keg that ended up blowing up but with added fuel due to the changing climate from 2015 till now.

Now I'm not saying Meyer wont get fired but at what point do we stop making others responsible for someone elses actions.  Should we hold bartenders responsible for DUIs?  How about the people at the bar that saw someone leaving and getting into their car?  If Urban Meyer reported it as he said, if they talked to the police department and they said there is no investigation and no arrest, then what else should Meyer and the university do besides tell Zach Smith that if they find out otherwise that he's done, which the incident in 2018 apparently is what did him in.

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, WeaponX said:

Reddit thread up where someone found articles confirming that OSU extended Smith’s contract twice between 2015 and 2018.

- Urban knew about the incident in 2009 at Florida.

- Courtney dropped the charges in 2009 after a visit from Zach’s grandfather/Urban’s mentor.

- Urban allowed him a second chance and kept him on staff at Florida.

- When Urban took the job at Ohio State, he brought Zach on the staff.

- 2015 incident occurs and Urban is made aware of it immediately thereafter.

- Zach is kept on staff with his third chance and Urban claims he reported his knowledge of the incident. To who is unclear.

- Between 2015 and 2018, Zach’s contract was renewed two times. The narrative that Urban and OSU couldn’t get rid of him without cause is invalidated by this. It wasn’t a case of retaining him for fear of wrongful termination. They simple could have chosen to not renew his contract.

- 2018 incident occurs and Zach is fired after his arrest.

- At Big Ten Media Day, Urban denies being aware of the 2015 incident and questions why someone would even report that.

- Evidence is provided showing Urban did know and Urban confirms that he lied at Big Ten Media Day but tries to characterize it as being confused and that he misspoke.

 

 

 

These are not the actions of someone taking domestic violence as a serious issue. These are the actions of a man protecting his mentor’s grandson and protecting his own legacy over the victim of domestic abuse. 

That is a fair way of looking at eveything, but also why was it Urban Meyers job to take action against someone the police werent even investigating or have arrested?  Also Urban Meyer isn't the final say in who gets a contract at Ohio State.  That goes higher up to Gene Smith and their legal team who probably do background checks before each new contract.  So that comes back to why did none of it show up in those background checks?  The only plausible answer was that there were no arrests and when you do a background check only incidents that involve an arrest/charges/citations show up.  I know this because when I was a recruiter with the Army we had to police checks all the time and only those things would show up on their records, even if they had admitted to us that they had talked to police about various incidents.

[Texasmade]

58 minutes ago, Raves said:

A)  Making the statement that he reported it you kind of should expect there to be proof that he did.  Anything less and he is guaranteeing that not only was he getting fired but he likely wouldnt get a job in coaching or the media ever again.

B)  If nots a Title IX issue and the police were already investigating, what more did you want Meyer to do?  You fire Zach Smith and it doesnt keep him from being able to beat his ex-wife, if anything it would give him more time/opportunities to find a way to.  Im not saying you keep a domestic abuser employed to keep him away from the abused, but firing Zach Smith does nothing to change the situation for a postive, especislly if in 2015 it was just accusations where it was reported and police said there was not an investigation or arrest.

You'd also kind of expect that a guy who knew damn well there was at least some type of altercation, or at least the allegations of one, between one of his staff members and his wife, wouldn't be diluted enough to stand up in front of god and everyone and claim the whole ordeal never happened and call the reporter who brought it to light a liar, dpesite their being public records detailing the altercation...........yet here we are. Did your momma ever tell you a lie can last a lifetime? You get caught in one lie, there's no putting that genie back in the bottle. 

Either fire him, or if you don't want to fire him based off allegations, suspend him while the people qualified to handle these situations look into those allegations and see if there's anything there (ya know kinda like the university is currently doing with Urban Meyer), which based on what we know there was. Doing nothing is not an option though. 

 

 

[Breesus mode]

2 hours ago, JTagg7754 said:

How can you "bury" something but tell your superiors which it's looking more and more like he did? Urban says he has, Zach says he has, logic says he has so why would we have a reason to believe otherwise? 

you're so invested in your team you're willing to believe a liar, lulz

[big poppa pump]

10 minutes ago, Breesus mode said:

you're so invested in your team you're willing to believe a liar, lulz

And you are such a hater...you have this case tried and convicted in the court of public opinion before all the facts are given.  .lulz

[Raves]

32 minutes ago, Texasmade said:

You'd also kind of expect that a guy who knew damn well there was at least some type of altercation, or at least the allegations of one, between one of his staff members and his wife, wouldn't be diluted enough to stand up in front of god and everyone and claim the whole ordeal never happened and call the reporter who brought it to light a liar, dpesite their being public records detailing the altercation...........yet here we are. Did your momma ever tell you a lie can last a lifetime? You get caught in one lie, there's no putting that genie back in the bottle. 

Either fire him, or if you don't want to fire him based off allegations, suspend him while the people qualified to handle these situations look into those allegations and see if there's anything there (ya know kinda like the university is currently doing with Urban Meyer), which based on what we know there was. Doing nothing is not an option though. 

 

 

Have you ever lied or did something wrong?  If so then by your own admission you should be punished and possibly fired from your job right?  Does it really matter what it was or what it was about or any of the other details?  You would've lied and/or did something wrong.

[WeaponX]

34 minutes ago, Raves said:

That is a fair way of looking at eveything, but also why was it Urban Meyers job to take action against someone the police werent even investigating or have arrested?  Also Urban Meyer isn't the final say in who gets a contract at Ohio State.  That goes higher up to Gene Smith and their legal team who probably do background checks before each new contract.  So that comes back to why did none of it show up in those background checks?  The only plausible answer was that there were no arrests and when you do a background check only incidents that involve an arrest/charges/citations show up.  I know this because when I was a recruiter with the Army we had to police checks all the time and only those things would show up on their records, even if they had admitted to us that they had talked to police about various incidents.

Regarding the police arrest/investigation:

- Urban Meyer had the concrete evidence that there was abuse in 2009. And he also knew that the only reason Zach wasn't arrested was because Courtney dropped the charges after Zach's grandfather went over and spoke to her. 

- Urban Meyer has also now confirmed that he knew about the abuse in 2015 even though he earlier denied knowledge of it.

- Urban wasn't hearing unsubstantiated rumors. He knew Zach had this past. Sure, if these were rumors that he found out about through a press release, then I can start to see the point you are making. 

- In a dismissal from any job, criminal investigations and arrests aren't the only standard for removal. If someone walked into work and told their boss to go screw themselves, a crime hasn't been committed but there is a strong chance the employee will be dismissed. To simplify it, a police investigation or arrest is not the standard that has to be met in order to be dismissed from a job. 

That brings me to my next point and next thing to address which is "why was it Urban Meyer's job to take action against someone..."

- When you're the head football coach, your job isn't just winning games and having success, your job is shaping young adults. You might think that's beyond the scope of a head coach and that their job is just to win games but on many occasions, Urban Meyer at Ohio State has made a point of mentioning how he is shaping men:

- It's clear that Urban has made it a point of trying to make "MEN" in "LIFE" in addition to on the field and in the classroom. 

- When you make it a point of emphasis that you are shaping "MEN" in "LIFE", it is probably a good idea to consider the character and actions of your assistants in trying to accomplish the goal of shaping "MEN" in "LIFE".

- Zach Smith, a man with a past history of committing domestic violence, is not the best person you want to be shaping "MEN" in "LIFE". At the very least, there are numerous other people you could trust in that role without that past. 

- Urban Meyer knew about Zach Smith's issues since 2009.

- Urban had 3 opportunities (that we know of) to remove this coach from his staff which he claims "will make MEN here, not just on the football field, but in the classroom and LIFE!"

On the subject of whether Urban had the final say on renewing Zach's contract and background checks:

- In college football, the top coaches like Urban Meyer, have final say on the coaches that they want to be on their staff. 

- If Urban Meyer, didn't want Zach to be back, he could have simply said so and he would no longer be on the staff. 

- If Urban Meyer wants Zach Smith on the staff, he tells the athletic department and they negotiate the contract. Short of Zach wanting a lot more money and the university not willing to pay him, Zach would be retained as WR coach.

- It is extremely difficult to believe that Gene Smith or other people at Ohio State would overrule Urban Meyer if he said "this guy has a troubling past of domestic violence and I don't want him here." It is really hard to buy that anyone would force Urban Meyer to keep a WR coach if he didn't want him.

- Whether or not an official background check said that Zach had issues with domestic violence is irrelevant. It mirrors the police investigation/arrest argument. Urban Meyer knew more about the situation than the police. We know why Zach wasn't arrested and why Courtney didn't press charges. 

- Even if the background check came back with no issues, Urban Meyer knew more about Zach's domestic violence issues than the background checks.