Preseason Week 2 Bengals @ Cowboys

[SmittyBacall]

17 minutes ago, INbengalfan said:

Alshon Jeffrey seems to do just fine on the outside.  So did Brandon Marshall.

The only difference being those two are faster than Tate. The 40 isn't the end all be all but it's worth noting. The only receiver to have moderate success at that speed irregardless of size is current Panthers WR Devin Funchess.

Tate ran a 4.68

Marshall ran a 4.56

and Jeffery ran about a 4.48

There is a reason someone as physically imposing with great ball skills and jump ball ability lasts until the 7th round. Historically they have slim chances of making it in the NFL. For our sake, I hope i'm dead wrong. I do think he has a ton of value in certain areas of the field; I just don't think that involves him lining up outside where he isn't going to run by anybody and corners are going to sit on short/intermediate routes because they too know this - there is no risk of getting burned. Hopefully he dominates the catch point enough to make up for his lack of speed.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/nfl-combine-results.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2018&pos[]=WR&show=all&c1stat=forty_yd&c1comp=gt&c1val=4.65&order_by=year_id

https://www.sbnation.com/2012-nfl-draft/2012/3/28/2908526/2012-nfl-draft-alshon-jeffery-40-times-pro-day

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/4/9/11326506/drafting-a-wide-receiver-are-40-times-and-other-combine-measurables

[theJ]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

The only difference being those two are faster than Tate. The 40 isn't the end all be all but it's worth noting. The only receiver to have moderate success at that speed irregardless of size is current Panthers WR Devin Funchess.

Tate ran a 4.68

Marshall ran a 4.56

and Jeffery ran about a 4.48

There is a reason someone as physically imposing with great ball skills and jump ball ability lasts until the 7th round. Historically they have slim chances of making it in the NFL. For our sake, I hope i'm dead wrong. I do think he has a ton of value in certain areas of the field; I just don't think that involves him lining up outside where he isn't going to run by anybody and corners are going to sit on short/intermediate routes because they too know this - there is no risk of getting burned. Hopefully he dominates the catch point enough to make up for his lack of speed.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/nfl-combine-results.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2018&pos[]=WR&show=all&c1stat=forty_yd&c1comp=gt&c1val=4.65&order_by=year_id

https://www.sbnation.com/2012-nfl-draft/2012/3/28/2908526/2012-nfl-draft-alshon-jeffery-40-times-pro-day

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/4/9/11326506/drafting-a-wide-receiver-are-40-times-and-other-combine-measurables

You're right in that there's a reason he was drafted in the 7th.  I'm trying not to get excited about him because there's all sorts of reasons for him to fail.

But, even though he doesn't have the speed, his body size combined smooth routes could mean that he has little trouble on the outside.  Anquan Boldin is probably a better comp.

EDIT: Boldin ran a 4.71

Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63.

https://www.google.com/search?q=anquon+boldin+40+time&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&oq=anquon+boldin+40+time&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.5429j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&q=larry+fitzgerald+40+yard+dash+time&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgFuLUz9U3MIrPKitQAjNNTIyTLLT4AlKLivPzgjNTUssTK4sXMZpnJ1vpJ-amFmUmJ-bFp-XnlyQl5uTowxjxBTmJlalFViYGCpWJRSkKKYnFGQolmbmpAAUJH25iAAAA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjvdb6gvLcAhXF44MKHY9ODzIQxA0wA3oECAsQEg&biw=1440&bih=824

[SmittyBacall]

2 minutes ago, theJ said:

You're right in that there's a reason he was drafted in the 7th.  I'm trying not to get excited about him because there's all sorts of reasons for him to fail.

But, even though he doesn't have the speed, his body size combined smooth routes could mean that he has little trouble on the outside.  Anquan Boldin is probably a better comp.

EDIT: Boldin ran a 4.71

Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63.

https://www.google.com/search?q=anquon+boldin+40+time&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&oq=anquon+boldin+40+time&aqs=chrome..69i64j0l5.5429j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&q=larry+fitzgerald+40+yard+dash+time&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgFuLUz9U3MIrPKitQAjNNTIyTLLT4AlKLivPzgjNTUssTK4sXMZpnJ1vpJ-amFmUmJ-bFp-XnlyQl5uTowxjxBTmJlalFViYGCpWJRSkKKYnFGQolmbmpAAUJH25iAAAA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjvdb6gvLcAhXF44MKHY9ODzIQxA0wA3oECAsQEg&biw=1440&bih=824

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/4cbcku/no_larry_fitzgerald_did_not_run_a_463_at_the_2004/

[INbengalfan]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

The only difference being those two are faster than Tate. The 40 isn't the end all be all but it's worth noting. The only receiver to have moderate success at that speed irregardless of size is current Panthers WR Devin Funchess.

Tate ran a 4.68

Marshall ran a 4.56

and Jeffery ran about a 4.48

There is a reason someone as physically imposing with great ball skills and jump ball ability lasts until the 7th round. Historically they have slim chances of making it in the NFL. For our sake, I hope i'm dead wrong. I do think he has a ton of value in certain areas of the field; I just don't think that involves him lining up outside where he isn't going to run by anybody and corners are going to sit on short/intermediate routes because they too know this - there is no risk of getting burned. Hopefully he dominates the catch point enough to make up for his lack of speed.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/nfl-combine-results.cgi?request=1&year_min=2000&year_max=2018&pos[]=WR&show=all&c1stat=forty_yd&c1comp=gt&c1val=4.65&order_by=year_id

https://www.sbnation.com/2012-nfl-draft/2012/3/28/2908526/2012-nfl-draft-alshon-jeffery-40-times-pro-day

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/4/9/11326506/drafting-a-wide-receiver-are-40-times-and-other-combine-measurables

He has made several plays on William Jackson and Iloka.  I think he bucks the historical trend and excels for us.

 

His speed may not create separation, but his height, jumping ability and extremely wide catch radius creates separation for him as well.  He just does it differently than a guy like Ross.  And to take it further, if a CB plays Ross perfectly, Ross doesn't get the ball.  Even if a guy has perfect coverage on tate, Tate can still get it.

[SmittyBacall]

41 minutes ago, INbengalfan said:

He has made several plays on William Jackson and Iloka.  I think he bucks the historical trend and excels for us.

His speed may not create separation, but his height, jumping ability and extremely wide catch radius creates separation for him as well.  He just does it differently than a guy like Ross.  And to take it further, if a CB plays Ross perfectly, Ross doesn't get the ball.  Even if a guy has perfect coverage on tate, Tate can still get it.

I hope he bucks the trend too.

Has he been making plays down the field on WJIII specifically, or just on the goal line and in the redzone?

And for the bold you're kind of going overboard on Tate's ability. His size is an advantage, but to only rely on one facet won't win you as many opportunities as a receiver who can separate consistently. That's like saying if a CB has perfect coverage on Antonio Brown, Antonio Brown has no chance but Tate does. Well yeah, Tate is better in congestion. Yet size, wingspan, high-pointing etc. still isn't enough in the arsenal for a WR that can do so much more than a goal line fade or a hail Mary. If that was the case he would have been drafted much higher than the 7th. It's an advantage, but it doesn't make up for what he lacks. At least until he proves otherwise for me.

[theJ]

15 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

I hope he bucks the trend too.

Has he been making plays down the field on WJIII specifically, or just on the goal line and in the redzone?

And for the bold you're kind of going overboard on Tate's ability. His size is an advantage, but to only rely on one facet won't win you as many opportunities as a receiver who can separate consistently. That's like saying if a CB has perfect coverage on Antonio Brown, Antonio Brown has no chance but Tate does. Well yeah, Tate is better in congestion. Yet size, wingspan, high-pointing etc. still isn't enough in the arsenal for a WR that can do so much more than a goal line fade or a hail Mary. If that was the case he would have been drafted much higher than the 7th. It's an advantage, but it doesn't make up for what he lacks. At least until he proves otherwise for me.

You're basically making the same case people made against Anquan Boldin when he was a rookie.  They're very similar players.

[theJ]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/4cbcku/no_larry_fitzgerald_did_not_run_a_463_at_the_2004/

That's fine.  I don't think it proves anything though.  While speed is a great benefactor for WR's, it's not the end-all be-all in terms of being successful.  When you watch Tate on film, he's not blazing fast but you don't mistake him for a lineman either.  He can move well enough.

I gave one example (Boldin) of a guy who did it without speed or quick twitches.  I'm sure there are more.

The thing is that with a guy with skills like that, you just use him differently than you would someone built like Randy Moss.  Do you run Tate vertically down the field 15 times/game?  Probably not.  You use his size and catch radius to body out defenders, put him jump ball situations, etc.  Use him more like a TE.

[SmittyBacall]

4 minutes ago, theJ said:

You're basically making the same case people made against Anquan Boldin when he was a rookie.  They're very similar players.

You think so? I always thought Boldin made a big part of his living compiling YAC in addition to being physical, which from what I've seen Tate lacks. Plus, Tate has 4 inches on him and naturally isn't as quick IMO.

Don't get me wrong guys I'm excited for him. The coaches are throwing everything at him - literally and figuratively - and he's yet to bite off more than he can chew. I really want to see him play with the ones Saturday.

[SmittyBacall]

3 minutes ago, theJ said:

That's fine.  I don't think it proves anything though.  While speed is a great benefactor for WR's, it's not the end-all be-all in terms of being successful.  When you watch Tate on film, he's not blazing fast but you don't mistake him for a lineman either.  He can move well enough.

I gave one example (Boldin) of a guy who did it without speed or quick twitches.  I'm sure there are more.

The thing is that with a guy with skills like that, you just use him differently than you would someone built like Randy Moss.  Do you run Tate vertically down the field 15 times/game?  Probably not.  You use his size and catch radius to body out defenders, put him jump ball situations, etc.  Use him more like a TE.

Exactly.

[theJ]

2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

You think so? I always thought Boldin made a big part of his living compiling YAC in addition to being physical, which from what I've seen Tate lacks. Plus, Tate has 4 inches on him and naturally isn't as quick IMO.

 

It's true.  He was a tough SOB who didn't go down.  But they still had to get him the ball first.

He was never quick.

[Johnny Nix]

Looks like ol Jake Kumerow is tearing it up in GB

[THE DUKE]

I want to see Tate have some sort of ridiculous stat line this year like 12 catches for 109 yards and 8 TD's

[INbengalfan]

1 hour ago, THE DUKE said:

I want to see Tate have some sort of ridiculous stat line this year like 12 catches for 109 yards and 8 TD's

Agreed.  I posted something similar on Cincy Jungle.  Something along the lines of 25 catches, 215 yards and 8 TDs.

[JungleJohn]

On 8/16/2018 at 2:07 PM, theJ said:

You're basically making the same case people made against Anquan Boldin when he was a rookie.  They're very similar players.

Yes, they similar players. But it isn't size or leaping ability that intrigues me about Tate, though they are solid factors. It is all of his other attributes. He has excellent body control, awareness, timing and most of all really good hands. We just may find that he has the best hands on the team. You will note in his catches to this point the ball just sticks to his hands. It doesn't wobble or slide or move about once it hits his hands. It is immediately secured and that is important. I also like his attitude. He is a fighter and will not easily allow any defender to take HIS ball.

Obviously all of this is based on what we have seen in relatively meaningless situations. The starting pro game just may be too big for him and he is simply a giant among lesser players. That is always possible until we see differently. But I am not sure I could be much more impressed with a rookie WR at this point than I a with Tate. But I have to temper my enthusiasm until the final verdict is in. Saturday in Dallas he may get a chance to validate himself further. We will see. 

[JungleJohn]

On 8/16/2018 at 12:49 PM, SmittyBacall said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/comments/4cbcku/no_larry_fitzgerald_did_not_run_a_463_at_the_2004/

I would suggest that you Google 'Chris Collinsworth WR 40 times'. He wrote an excellent article regarding the mis-representation of 40  times as the WR gets taller and taller. The taller the WR the less 40 times indicate their true playing speed. He thinks it should be expanded to 60 yards. Shorter players run faster 40 times in general as they hit their top end speed earlier. Taller WRs don't hit their top speed for a dozen or more yards later. Ross has a very fast 40 time and is relatively short. Tate has a slower 40 time and he is very tall. Once a tall WR gets his long strides working for him he can eat up ground. I also noticed that at the combine Tate didn't have very good take of technique in the 40. Look and see what you think.  I would have no problem with Tate on the outside at times. Yes, CBs can stay with him but most can't stay with him and out jump him when he is high pointing the ball. It is also possible we will see PI calls as CBs impact with Tate before the ball gets there in attempts to nullify his height advantage.