Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[Dr LBC]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

Show me once in the entire show history that she gives the order to go after civilians?

That's not her and regardless of what she "talks" herself into she has never once entertained that idea. She would have kept the Unsullied in chains if she cared that little for human life.

What do you consider civilians?  She's killed or been directly responsible for the killing of people who were not responsible for directly doing the harm upon her that she accused them of.  She lumped plenty of others in to receive a death sentence for the acts of others or their peers.  I refer you back three pages where I brought up how she saw the 163 crucified children on the road to Mereen and upon reaching Mereen and gaining control, she ordered 163 masters crucified - there was no specification that the masters who ordered the crucifixions be the ones held responsible, nope, any 163 masters would do.  All the khals and everyone else that was in that massive hut in Vaes Dothrak - they were in her way, so she burned them all to death.

She's made gradiations towards killing civilians as the series has progressed.  It's not the massive jump you're trying to make it sound like, especially for someone who quite quickly (due to revelations and losses to what gave her power) went from being in quite likely the strongest claim to a point of near-desperation to maintain her claim.  Her position - setting moralities aside - was more parallel than different to Cersei's when she went aggro and nuked the Sept of Balor (and everyone in it) in order to "protect/assert her position of power."

[Matts4313]

2 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

No and go back and read your pics. Kill men in their Iron Suits. Civilians do not wear Iron Suits. Lay waste to armies, civilians are not an army unless their conscripted.

Not once has she ever said that or given that kind of order until now.

I point towards what got Khal Drogo killed as proof that that has NEVER been the case.

Reread them again. Look for this word:

Cities

 

^^^^^ Thats the place civilians live.

[Matts4313]

2 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

You can't use Kings Landing as an example because what we are arguing is it's not in her character to do that to begin with. I can say I'm gonna burn my job to the ground (I actually love my job) doesn't mean I ever have any intention on ever doing it. It would not fit my personality what so ever, even if I say it.

There is a reason millions and millions of people on reddit/youtube/facebook are calling D&D bad writers here. I think maybe 2% of the reaction is positive, this football forum being a rarity.

 

Nah, Im on Reddit and Youtube also. I read what people say. Its clearly not 2% that liked the episode, probably more like 80%+. The 20% is always the loudest. 

And you can believe whatever you want. But I think its completely ignorant to say a character that has been talking about burning cities to the ground and killing everyone who gets in her way is out of character when she burns a city to the ground and kills the people in her way. 

She has been wanting to do it all along. That is her character - she is a killer. Her character was talked out of it by her advisors. 

[Matts4313]

5 minutes ago, The LBC said:

15 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Show me once in the entire show history that she gives the order to go after civilians?

That's not her and regardless of what she "talks" herself into she has never once entertained that idea. She would have kept the Unsullied in chains if she cared that little for human life.

What do you consider civilians?  She's killed or been directly responsible for the killing of people who were not responsible for directly doing the harm upon her that she accused them of.  She lumped plenty of others in to receive a death sentence for the acts of others or their peers.  I refer you back three pages where I brought up how she saw the 163 crucified children on the road to Mereen and upon reaching Mereen and gaining control, she ordered 163 masters crucified - there was no specification that the masters who ordered the crucifixions be the ones held responsible, nope, any 163 masters would do.  All the khals and everyone else that was in that massive hut in Vaes Dothrak - they were in her way, so she burned them all to death.

She's made gradiations towards killing civilians as the series has progressed.  It's not the massive jump you're trying to make it sound like, especially for someone who quite quickly (due to revelations and losses to what gave her power) went from being in quite likely the strongest claim to a point of near-desperation to maintain her claim.  Her position - setting moralities aside - was more parallel than different to Cersei's when she went aggro and nuked the Sept of Balor (and everyone in it) in order to "protect/assert her position of power."

She also burned an innocent dude to death to put fear into the harpys. She has 100% given orders to kill civilians. 

[BayRaider]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Nah, Im on Reddit and Youtube also. I read what people say. Its clearly not 2% that liked the episode, probably more like 80%+. The 20% is always the loudest. 

And you can believe whatever you want. But I think its completely ignorant to say a character that has been talking about burning cities to the ground and killing everyone who gets in her way is out of character when she burns a city to the ground and kills the people in her way. 

She has been wanting to do it all along. That is her character - she is a killer. Her character was talked out of it by her advisors. 

Shoot me dialogue all you want but the writing nor execution was believable in any sense of the word. 

It was like “hey shes gonna be Mad Queen one day lets throw some scenes that are a complete 360 from her personality in there”. 

[BayRaider]

7 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Nah, Im on Reddit and Youtube also. I read what people say. Its clearly not 2% that liked the episode, probably more like 80%+. The 20% is always the loudest. 

And you can believe whatever you want. But I think its completely ignorant to say a character that has been talking about burning cities to the ground and killing everyone who gets in her way is out of character when she burns a city to the ground and kills the people in her way. 

She has been wanting to do it all along. That is her character - she is a killer. Her character was talked out of it by her advisors. 

Yes the 20% are always the loudest because they are usually fanboys who cannot accept criticism. This goes for all major things, GoT, Star Wars, Apple, etc etc. 

[Calvert28]

3 minutes ago, The LBC said:

What do you consider civilians?  She's killed or been directly responsible for the killing of people who were not responsible for directly doing the harm upon her that she accused them of.  She lumped plenty of others in to receive a death sentence for the acts of others or their peers.  I refer you back three pages where I brought up how she saw the 163 crucified children on the road to Mereen and upon reaching Mereen and gaining control, she ordered 163 masters crucified - there was no specification that the masters who ordered the crucifixions be the ones held responsible, nope, any 163 masters would do.  All the khals and everyone else that was in that massive hut in Vaes Dothrak - they were in her way, so she burned them all to death.

She's made gradiations towards killing civilians as the series has progressed.  It's not the massive jump you're trying to make it sound like, especially for someone who quite quickly (due to revelations and losses to what gave her power) went from being in quite likely the strongest claim to a point of near-desperation to maintain her claim.  Her position - setting moralities aside - was more parallel than different to Cersei's when she went aggro and nuked the Sept of Balor (and everyone in it) in order to "protect/assert her position of power."

Yea and think about the term Masters for a second. They weren't shop keepers, blacksmith's, farmers, beggers and such. These were people who dealt in slaves, enjoyed putting them in fighting pits, sent children into these pits to be torn apart by animals, gelded little boys and trained them to kill children and anyone else who bought them when they were old enough, forced little girls into prostitution. Then when she came to liberate the slaves there they crucified 163 children. So yea she stereotyped a bit. But what did the people of King's Landing do to be stereotyped as nonredeemable and good for kindling? Tell me. Were you crying over what she did to those people? When did she become a monster, when she did that to the Master's or when she did it to the people of KL. There is a huge difference between the two. 

No, no she hasn't. There have been casualties, sure. But again this is the same woman who got her own husband killed by trying to save people from bondage. If she was every bit the psychopath that wants to kill the moment someone tells her no. She would not have the capacity to go out of the custom's of the Dothraki to save women and children. She would have burned Yunkai to the ground just for refusing her. She would have burned Mereen to the ground. 163 Masters is a far cry from the million she apparently just roasted. So yea it is a massive freaking jump in craziness.

1 million people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>163 people.

[PARROTHEAD]

Yall all acting like she burned a huge amount of people.

Way the Unsullied, North and Dothraki were handled. I not going to doubt Jon goes to Dany and says, "Dozens of innocents perished."

Edited May 14, 2019 by PARROTHEAD

[Calvert28]

15 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Reread them again. Look for this word:

Cities

 

^^^^^ Thats the place civilians live.

She was also in a bit of a pickle after the journey she just made through what was their Sahara. If you were facing death and begging didn't help I'm sure you would throw out all manner of possible trades, pleads, threats and such.

Besides I ask my question again, if she had such a tendency to do such a thing and with nearly the exact same advisors she's had for years and years minus Ser Barristan and some of the time Jorah. When did she burn these cities to the ground?

Tell me if she cared that little and anything could set her off why would she leave Daario in Mereen to keep the peace? Why would she even care for it for a place she was never going to return to again?

She's a conqueror and given her environment it would unrealistic if she tried to solve everything by peace and negotiations. But considering all of that she has shown throughout the show and the books she tries to use peaceful talks more so then any other character outside of Jon himself.

[PARROTHEAD]

So GRRM has come out and said what Selmys actor said was wrong. And that he hasnt even started ADOS yet. And wont until WOW has come out. Which he said isnt finished either.

I dont see any way now the books get finished if he hasnt started anything for ADOS yet.

[Calvert28]

40 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

She also burned an innocent dude to death to put fear into the harpys. She has 100% given orders to kill civilians. 

Really? You do know what a Master in this show is right? The head of one of the families none the less. Can you say 100% that the guy was innocent?

[Calvert28]

3 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

So GRRM has come out and said what Selmys actor said was wrong. And that he hasnt even started ADOS yet. And wont until WOW has come out. Which he said isnt finished either.

I dont see any way now the books get finished if he hasnt started anything for ADOS yet.

Yea I've given up hope he actually finishes the books. He has his money from the show and merchandise.

[Matts4313]

56 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Besides I ask my question again, if she had such a tendency to do such a thing and with nearly the exact same advisors she's had for years and years minus Ser Barristan and some of the time Jorah. When did she burn these cities to the ground?

Ok, I will ask a question as well. If she wasnt a killer that wanted to burn down cities in her heart: 

Why does she repeatedly tell everyone her plan is to burn down cities?

Why does she need her advisors to talk her out of killing people?

Why does Tyrion admit to Cersei that she would have burned down KL if it wasnt for him "checking her worst impulses"?

The chick has dragons. She wants to use them to take over westeros -that includes burning down cities if she deems it.  100% in line with what her character has always been.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Matts4313

[Matts4313]

1 hour ago, BayRaider said:

Shoot me dialogue all you want but the writing nor execution was believable in any sense of the word. 

It was like “hey shes gonna be Mad Queen one day lets throw some scenes that are a complete 360 from her personality in there”. 

 

1 hour ago, Calvert28 said:

Really? You do know what a Master in this show is right? The head of one of the families none the less. Can you say 100% that the guy was innocent?

From Reddit:

Quote

• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)

• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”

• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”

• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."

• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.

• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”

• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.

• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”

• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”

• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”

• 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.

• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.

• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”

• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”

• 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”

• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)

• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”

• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.

• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”

• 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.

• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”

• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.

• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.

• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”

• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.

• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.

• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a ******* dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)

• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)

• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”

• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”

• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)

• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.

• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”

• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”

• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)

• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)

• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”

And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.

Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.

She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.

Like I said. 100% in line with her character. 

[Calvert28]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Ok, I will ask a question as well. If she wasnt a killer that wanted to burn down cities in her heart: 

It wasn't in her heart. It wasn't some screaming desire like Heath Ledger Joker to watch everything burn.

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Why does she repeatedly tell everyone her plan is to burn down cities?

She doesn't. She uses the idea in extreme cases and if I remember correctly all of those were in Slaver's Bay with the Master's who probably deserve it. In King's Landing no one did anything to her aside from Euron and Cersei. So she destroys their fleet and their towers and men. But then when she finally wins the city at every other point in the series where she might carry out an act of vengeance of some kind to punish those people in particular. She instead goes after the people she knows Cersei doesn't even care about. That's off the deep end even for the Dany in your mind.

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Why does she need her advisors to talk her out of killing people?

Again who did she grow up with? Why did she run from city to city? Who was she married too? I agreed with you she has violent tendencies but even in Game of Thrones she had a violent upbringing. She was told by her own brother he would let her husband's entire army rape her and with their horses too if that's what it took to get what he wants. This entire world is violent to some degree on all levels and she was exposed to more then most of the main characters.

Im sure you can appreciate her beginnings and where she came from as a nurture rather then it being her nature.

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Why does Tyrion admit to Cersei that she would have burned down KL if it wasnt for him "checking her worst impulses"?

That never happened. He told her that Dany wanted to bring her Fire and Blood. Meaning she just wanted to invade the city and put her head on a pike.

What happens usually when a army sacks a city? Usually all hell breaks loose, its a side effect of war. And yea she's had impulses given her upbringing that she feels like to respond violently to her enemies. Sacking a city usually ends violently.

Besides if she had such an itch to burn a city to the ground she wouldn't have listened to Tyrion then.

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

The chick has dragons. She wants to use them to take over westeros -that includes burning down cities if she deems it.  100% in line with what her character has always been.

Her character has impulses stemming all the way from childhood. If she was the Mad Queen then like her father she would not have listened to council. The fact that she listened means it was completely out of character for her to go off the rails like that.