State of our team

[Frankie2Gunz]

3 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

I def agree with the last paragraph. Bosa at 21 on a rookie deal for 5 years or Mack on a 5 year deal making 24M and lasting until he is 32. Bosa is the easy choice here which is what I’ve been saying for a while. 

The winner of this trade will all come down who wins the SB first between the Raiders and Bears. If no teams wins the SB within the next 6-7 years it was a fail for both. 

If the Bears win a super bowl after Mack retired then the point is moot.  We could have a 9 year window with a player like Bosa, the Bears will have 3 or 4 with Mack playing at a high level.  

[G]

45 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

If the Bears win a super bowl after Mack retired then the point is moot.  We could have a 9 year window with a player like Bosa, the Bears will have 3 or 4 with Mack playing at a high level.  

EDIT Frankie I went off a bit but what I wanted to ask you is what WR's would you want in the draft? Lots of big bodied WR's and ignore the rant below. I'm still pissed and expect to be for at least a decade. 

 

Who says we get Bosa? Maybe we win another game and someone drafts him ahead of us. Maybe Gruden goes QB #1 overall. Maybe he trades back to collect picks and they all bust. Maybe top players publically say that the Raiders look worse than 2004 Chargers and don't want to play one season and move again. Maybe top talent stay in school if we hold top pick. Bosa already declared but he pulls a Manning and our pick loses value. We didn't have to sign Mack. 5th year and two Franchise tags would have been cheaper and would have made us look bad for not paying our top talent but we look worse by not paying him and trading him away for peanuts. 2019 pick probably in the 20's our 2nd in 2020 is in the 30's and their 1st in in the 20's oh and their 3rd is close to 90's

I have ZERO doubt that if Gruden could go back he would. He'd reach out to Mack, explain the 5th opt, franchise 2X plan if he doesn't want to sign the long term deal. If we didn't make the playoffs this year then we just trade Mack before 2019 draft so you KNOW what the value is at that moment in time. You compete the first season and give it your all. Or you get the team quitting on the coaches and them being more interested in staying healthy to make another team next season.

The Oakland Raiders are a DUMPSTER FIRE sprinkled with feces and excrement. One man is to blame and that man is JON GRUDEN! 

He chose coaches and a system that didn't fit the team he had. Instead of him making coaching adjustments he forced the players to adjust. When Jon was HC before we had big piggies like RT Kennedy, RG Collins, C Robbins, G Middleton and only LT Sims/Stinchcomb were athletic ZBS types. Tyrone Wheatly was not a ZBS RB yet he did well as a retread with us. 

Jon Gruden has been given a 10 year 100 million contract and this TEAM is what he gives back to the world. He can't quit and give back the money because he'd be delt with mafia style. He's STUCK and we're stuck with him. I hope we lose every game and I hope he's so embarrassed that it humbles him to read a book on leadership and taking responsibility. Then he ACTS on what is in that book. He never should have left the booth because he was able to control those people but he's learning that grown alpha men don't have to put up with his BS. Players will shut it down and play elsewhere. Fans don't have to eat the plate of excrement that he's dishing out. He'll see the darkside of a fanbase that feels betrayed by the NFL, owner and 100 million dollar man. Once in Vegas he won't have to worry because half the stadium will be fans from the visiting team wanting to have a weekend in Vegas watching their team. A winning product will fix all that ails the Raiders but right now losing it all to hit rock bottom is needed to humble and put in cheack all those who lead us to where we are today. Too bad the Redskins are doing well because I'm sure Chucklehead wanted to get his brother here and Bill C. back in black. Nope we'll keep our puppet OC and Cable another season. Yippy Kai A

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

While I agree with some of what you said a DE is not nearly as important as of a position as the QB.  That is an obvious fact.  Saying we should have kept Mack and gotten rid of Carr who has shown MVP caliber type play is also not a smart move. People don't mention the fact that Qb's can play at a high level into their late 30's where as DE's like Mack will start do decline around 30. 

I can't remember a time where a DE had a fraction of the impact the QB does throughout a game.  Don't get me wrong a quality DE who can rush the passer is an important piece to a successful team but by no means is it QB worthy.  99 percent of the time a starting QB goes down the teams chances of winning the SB are basically eviscerated, the same can not be said about a DE.  

Let's also take the emotion out of it for 1 second.  Mack has averaged 10 sacks and 75 total tackles per year as a Raider.  While thise numbers are respectable, they can be replaced at a fraction of the price.  I am not foolish, I do realize that Mack had a much greater impact than just the black and white numbers but like I said in the prior post this team is so far from contending, Mack will most likely be retired by the time we sniff the playoffs and we will be in a much better position then with all of the influx of young talent we have acquired in the trade for Mack. Bottom line is that with or without Mack this team is a disaster.  It would have been a disservice to Mack to keep such a good player, who has 3 or 4 prime years left stuck playing with this dumpster fire of a team.  The impact it would have on our cap would have been a disaster as well.  paying 23 million for a non QB ton a team that is 5 years away from contending makes zero sense.  

If the Bears don't win a Super Bowl with Mack then the trade was a success in my opinion.  That is all that matters in the NFL, no one cares about 2nd place.  We now have the pressure of drafting well and if we cant then Gruden needs to be fired and my statements about contending in 5 years will be revised to a decade.  

Also ask yourself would this team be better off with 21 year old Nick Bosa on a rookie deal for the next 5 years or Mack making 24 a year for the next 5 when he will be 32?  

I do agree with what you are saying also but I think you are missing some of my points.  Mack put up those numbers without a real team or coach around.  You could even argue that he won as many games and played a huge role in the games that you could say Carr won for us.  My other point was that we should have signed Mack firs and taken the wait and see approach with Carr instead of the other way around.  Carr played really good to great at times but his salary was the same whether it was a franchise tag or new contract.  Plus everyone new what Mack could do with no one around him so you knew what his floor was.  Carr on the other hand had talent to work with even though the WRs dropped the ball far to often.  He had good to all pro line every where except RT on the line.  Also Edge/DL that are more important than the QB would be Bruce Smith, Reggie White, and Lawrence Taylor off the top of my head and you could argue Mack is in that class even without the talent or coach.  There is no argument if he had some players and a coach that did not say himself that he did not know Xs and Os.  Bosa is a great talent and an easy argument can be made for having him on a rookie deal over Mack.  I already made that argument after we traded Mack.  My argument is that I would rather have a crap Offence with some talent on D and draft Bosa rather than have a crap D and a crap O and draft Bosa.  Mack was a better play than Carr is the point I am making.

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 hour ago, G said:

EDIT Frankie I went off a bit but what I wanted to ask you is what WR's would you want in the draft? Lots of big bodied WR's and ignore the rant below. I'm still pissed and expect to be for at least a decade. 

 

Who says we get Bosa? Maybe we win another game and someone drafts him ahead of us. Maybe Gruden goes QB #1 overall. Maybe he trades back to collect picks and they all bust. Maybe top players publically say that the Raiders look worse than 2004 Chargers and don't want to play one season and move again. Maybe top talent stay in school if we hold top pick. Bosa already declared but he pulls a Manning and our pick loses value. We didn't have to sign Mack. 5th year and two Franchise tags would have been cheaper and would have made us look bad for not paying our top talent but we look worse by not paying him and trading him away for peanuts. 2019 pick probably in the 20's our 2nd in 2020 is in the 30's and their 1st in in the 20's oh and their 3rd is close to 90's

I have ZERO doubt that if Gruden could go back he would. He'd reach out to Mack, explain the 5th opt, franchise 2X plan if he doesn't want to sign the long term deal. If we didn't make the playoffs this year then we just trade Mack before 2019 draft so you KNOW what the value is at that moment in time. You compete the first season and give it your all. Or you get the team quitting on the coaches and them being more interested in staying healthy to make another team next season.

The Oakland Raiders are a DUMPSTER FIRE sprinkled with feces and excrement. One man is to blame and that man is JON GRUDEN! 

He chose coaches and a system that didn't fit the team he had. Instead of him making coaching adjustments he forced the players to adjust. When Jon was HC before we had big piggies like RT Kennedy, RG Collins, C Robbins, G Middleton and only LT Sims/Stinchcomb were athletic ZBS types. Tyrone Wheatly was not a ZBS RB yet he did well as a retread with us. 

Jon Gruden has been given a 10 year 100 million contract and this TEAM is what he gives back to the world. He can't quit and give back the money because he'd be delt with mafia style. He's STUCK and we're stuck with him. I hope we lose every game and I hope he's so embarrassed that it humbles him to read a book on leadership and taking responsibility. Then he ACTS on what is in that book. He never should have left the booth because he was able to control those people but he's learning that grown alpha men don't have to put up with his BS. Players will shut it down and play elsewhere. Fans don't have to eat the plate of excrement that he's dishing out. He'll see the darkside of a fanbase that feels betrayed by the NFL, owner and 100 million dollar man. Once in Vegas he won't have to worry because half the stadium will be fans from the visiting team wanting to have a weekend in Vegas watching their team. A winning product will fix all that ails the Raiders but right now losing it all to hit rock bottom is needed to humble and put in cheack all those who lead us to where we are today. Too bad the Redskins are doing well because I'm sure Chucklehead wanted to get his brother here and Bill C. back in black. Nope we'll keep our puppet OC and Cable another season. Yippy Kai A

I'm not saying we are guaranteed to get Bosa but we should be in a prime spot to draft him.  Ideally we land the number 1 pick and Herbert declares for the draft, we trade back 1 spot with the Giants and get the number 2 pick (Bosa) and stack more picks including another 1st rounder in 2020.  That would be ideal...

I haven't watched enough college football this year to give an accurate assessment on the WR class.  I have been reading that AJ Brown is looking like a mid first rounder but like I said I haven't watched 1 second of his gameplay so I would have no clue if he is good or not.  

[Frankie2Gunz]

38 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I do agree with what you are saying also but I think you are missing some of my points.  Mack put up those numbers without a real team or coach around.  You could even argue that he won as many games and played a huge role in the games that you could say Carr won for us.  My other point was that we should have signed Mack firs and taken the wait and see approach with Carr instead of the other way around.  Carr played really good to great at times but his salary was the same whether it was a franchise tag or new contract.  Plus everyone new what Mack could do with no one around him so you knew what his floor was.  Carr on the other hand had talent to work with even though the WRs dropped the ball far to often.  He had good to all pro line every where except RT on the line.  Also Edge/DL that are more important than the QB would be Bruce Smith, Reggie White, and Lawrence Taylor off the top of my head and you could argue Mack is in that class even without the talent or coach.  There is no argument if he had some players and a coach that did not say himself that he did not know Xs and Os.  Bosa is a great talent and an easy argument can be made for having him on a rookie deal over Mack.  I already made that argument after we traded Mack.  My argument is that I would rather have a crap Offence with some talent on D and draft Bosa rather than have a crap D and a crap O and draft Bosa.  Mack was a better play than Carr is the point I am making.

Let's say that Jim Kelly broke his leg, you're telling me that the Bills would have been more successful with Bruce Smith in the lineup as opposed to Jim Kelly?  If you think that you're clearly delusional.  Same goes for Brett Favre/ Reggie White or Phil Sims/ LT. 

I don't want to hear about how the Giants won a SB with Hostetler as we all know that was an anomaly and FYI LT had zero sacks in that game.  Ol' Al thought Hos was the man, signed him to a huge deal and he was a bust.  Someone will make the same mistake with SB winning QB Nick Foles.  

[drfrey13]

Frank Reich, Aaron Rodgers, and Jeff Hostetler would all say they were better off with the starting QB out than the HOF defensive player.  All three where the back ups to these players and accomplished just as much when it comes to winning.  Now I know Doug Pederson among many others were Favres back ups in the Reggie White years but since Favre is an Ironman his only backup that got to start was Rodgers.  Now other than Rodgers I will not try to argue that the back-ups are as good as the starters but your point is that these teams could not win without their top QBs but they did and their HOF defensive players were huge factors.

 

After his career is over Carr's ceiling is a lot closer to the Phil Sims class than Kelly and Favre.

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Let's say that Jim Kelly broke his leg, you're telling me that the Bills would have been more successful with Bruce Smith in the lineup as opposed to Jim Kelly?  If you think that you're clearly delusional.  Same goes for Brett Favre/ Reggie White or Phil Sims/ LT. 

I don't want to hear about how the Giants won a SB with Hostetler as we all know that was an anomaly and FYI LT had zero sacks in that game.  Ol' Al thought Hos was the man, signed him to a huge deal and he was a bust.  Someone will make the same mistake with SB winning QB Nick Foles.  

The fact that these teams won just as much with far inferior QBs shows how important the players around them are.  This is an argument against Carr.  And if the star defensive player did not fill up the stat sheet does not mean they did nothing.  LT was triple teamed as was Reggie White and Smith all the time.  Like Mack they made the players around them better.

[Frankie2Gunz]

2 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Frank Reich, Aaron Rodgers, and Jeff Hostetler would all say they were better off with the starting QB out than the HOF defensive player.  All three where the back ups to these players and accomplished just as much when it comes to winning.  Now I know Doug Pederson among many others were Favres back ups in the Reggie White years but since Favre is an Ironman his only backup that got to start was Rodgers.  Now other than Rodgers I will not try to argue that the back-ups are as good as the starters but your point is that these teams could not win without their top QBs but they did and their HOF defensive players were huge factors.

You're comparing HOF Qb's to backup trash and I have no idea what Rogers has to do with your point. 

If you ask any GM in the world world you rather lose a D star or your starting QB not 1 would say QB that is unless their QB is absolute trash to begin with.  If you don't agree with that then I have no idea what to tell you.  

[Frankie2Gunz]

Just now, drfrey13 said:

The fact that these teams won just as much with far inferior QBs shows how important the players around them are.  This is an argument against Carr.

Won just as much LOL.  You're taking a small sample size against QB's who were HOFers and successful careers for over a decade.  Thats like saying that Foles is a better QB than Marino bc he won a Super Bowl and strung a few good games together. hahahahaha

[drfrey13]

8 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Won just as much LOL.  You're taking a small sample size against QB's who were HOFers and successful careers for over a decade.  Thats like saying that Foles is a better QB than Marino bc he won a Super Bowl and strung a few good games together. hahahahaha

I am saying that you are overstating the importance of a QB compared to generational defensive pass rushers.  The teams were still able to go just as far with the back ups.  Of course the starters are better.  That is why they are starters.  Carr was more dependent on Mack than Mack was on Carr.  Now if Carr was Brady level player there is no question who is more important but it is not always the case that the QB is more important.  I am sure we are seeing currently that our team right now that the DE was a better play than paying the QB.  This is not just hindsight either.  Their was enough evidence that some people here were angry that we signed Carr first after they found out Mack was traded.

And by the way I would never say any QB was better than Marino.  If I am starting an all time team he is my number one pick.  Winning in football is a team effort but I believe he is the most gifted QB of all time and his shortcomings were team based.  Can you imagine him on the 49er's.  Brady would still be chasing him.

[Frankie2Gunz]

18 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I am saying that you are overstating the importance of a QB compared to generational defensive pass rushers.  The teams were still able to go just as far with the back ups.  Of course the starters are better.  That is why they are starters.  Carr was more dependent on Mack than Mack was on Carr.  Now if Carr was Brady level player there is no question who is more important but it is not always the case that the QB is more important.  I am sure we are seeing currently that our team right now that the DE was a better play than paying the QB.  This is not just hindsight either.  Their was enough evidence that some people here were angry that we signed Carr first after they found out Mack was traded.

And by the way I would never say any QB was better than Marino.  If I am starting an all time team he is my number one pick.  Winning in football is a team effort but I believe he is the most gifted QB of all time and his shortcomings were team based.  Can you imagine him on the 49er's.  Brady would still be chasing him.

So you're saying Marino's shortcoming were bc of his surrounding cast but in Carr's case they're not?  Are you also saying that most GM's would take a top D player over a top QB?  

Let's say we traded Carr for Fitz and we still had Mack.  Give me an idea of what you project Mack's stats to be and how many wins we would have?  Also in 4 years when Mack is 31 years old and Fitz is collecting AARP checks where would that leave us at the QB position?  

Let me guess we draft one.  We all know stud QB's fall off trees, so that will be easy. 

[drfrey13]

1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

So you're saying Marino's shortcoming were bc of his surrounding cast but in Carr's case they're not?  Are you also saying that most GM's would take a top D player over a top QB?  

Let's say we traded Carr for Fitz and we still had Mack.  Give me an idea of what you project Mack's stats to be and how many wins we would have?  Also in 4 years when Mack is 31 years old and Fitz is collecting AARP checks where would that leave us at the QB position?  

Marino had more talent than Carr but Marino did more with the talent he had.  Sorry but Marino was a pro bowler his first 5 years and first team all pro 3 of those years.  Is Carr a better QB with better talent? Of Course but Carr is dependent on having talent around him to play good.  Mack was not.  Marino was not.  They both would have been better but their talent levels allowed them to shine based upon their own abilities.  Carr does not and makes mistakes because he panics.  He also panics when there is no reason to panic.  He has horrible line play and combined with the injuries he is shell shocked and broken.  I do not know if he can be fixed.  Fitz will make mistakes also but will make good plays also.  His mistakes come from him taking chances.  Carr makes mistakes from trying not to take chances.  If we traded Carr for Fitz we would probably have 2 first round picks still and have Mack on D.  We would need to draft another QB with one of the picks.  We would be around .500 or better and not letting a 3rd string QB destroy our defense.

 

Right now we have 2 firsts for Mack (one of wich needs to be spent on a DE to replace just like we would have done for QB), what appears to be a broken QB that the team is not rallying around (we may need to spend another first on his replacement), and are a team that is spiraling into one of the worst teams in NFL history.  Is this all on Carr? No.  Much of it is on Gruden's shoulders but this team would at least of had a QB that was willing to take a shot for them and a HOF DE that probably would have been the difference in 3 of the games.  We would have had hope.

[drfrey13]

Bye bye Irvin

Hello Sam Bradford

[big_palooka]

I really don't care about all the draft picks if Gruden is the one making them. 

We already know Gruden the GM is garbage. So what are we really expecting? 

[drfrey13]

2 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I really don't care about all the draft picks if Gruden is the one making them. 

We already know Gruden the GM is garbage. So what are we really expecting? 

I hope I am wrong but we have coach that has completely destroyed our team and appears to not be capable of rebuilding it.  I want us to grab Bradford now and see if he is worse than Carr to gauge where the issue is.

 

Fun talks today but time to go to work.