Brees vs Manning

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 hour ago, sammymvpknight said:

He also was teamed up with the worst defense of all-time that season. 

No he wasn't. He wasn't even teamed up with the worst defense that season let alone of all-time.

But even if he did play with the worst defense of all time, it doesn't excuse the interceptions. 

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

No he wasn't. He wasn't even teamed up with the worst defense that season let alone of all-time.

But even if he did play with the worst defense of all time, it doesn't excuse the interceptions. 

They gave up the most yards in NFL history that season.  It doesn't excuse the INTs, but it does force a less efficient style of play.

Manning has had some pretty high INT totals with much better defenses.  I don't know what you're trying to argue here, but 2012 is not a good season to do it.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

Frankly, I don't think Brees and Peyton even belong in the same conversation. He simply didn't dominate nearly as much as Peyton did throughout his career up to this point in his career. Brady and Peyotn are on their own level at the top of the QBs in the modern era, and Brees is at the top of the next tier of guys. So still, the 3rd best QB of this modern era of football, but still not on Peyton''s level. 

Yes, I would take Brees over Aaron Rodgers as their careers stand right now. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

5 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

They gave up the most yards in NFL history that season.  It doesn't excuse the INTs, but it does force a less efficient style of play.

Manning has had some pretty high INT totals with much better defenses.  I don't know what you're trying to argue here, but 2012 is not a good season to do it.

That doesn't matter. Yardage is far less indicative of winning as scoring is, so saying they are the worst because they gave up the most yards is nonsensical. Again, they weren't even the worst defense that particular season let alone of all time. 

I don''t know why you wouldn't know what I am trying to argue here, I was reinforcing a point somebody else made. It was said that Brees benefitted from having Payton as seen by his relatively lesser performance in 2012, but somebody disputed that saying that it was a good season because of XYZ reason, but left out the fact that he lead the league in interceptions. All that was being argued was pointing out the fact that Brees's performance dropped off significantly without Sean Payton in 2012. That is all. Manning's INT totals are irrelevant to the extent to which Payton's expertise helps Brees so that's a moot point. 

[Jlowe22]

8 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

That doesn't matter. Yardage is far less indicative of winning as scoring is, so saying they are the worst because they gave up the most yards is nonsensical. Again, they weren't even the worst defense that particular season let alone of all time. 

I don''t know why you wouldn't know what I am trying to argue here, because it was said that Brees benefitted from having Payton as seen by his relatively lesser performance in 2012, but somebody disputed that saying that it was a good season because of XYZ reason, but left out the fact that he lead the league in interceptions. All that was being argued was pointing out the fact that Brees's performance dropped off significantly without Sean Payton in 2012. That is all. Manning's INT totals are irrelevant to the extent to which Payton's expertise helps Brees so that's a moot point. 

You can't expect a 2011 season every year, with or without Payton.  Saints offense set some significant records that year.  Manning didn't come close to his 2004 year until 2013.

And lol at saying yardage doesn't matter.  They gave up over 7k yards that year, and were 31st in points.  That's a god awful defense however you slice it.

Manning is better than Brees, but anything to do with 2012 is a **** argument.

Edit:  And the only reason they weren't 32nd in points, was because they shut out a tanking Bucs team with Josh Freeman at QB who turned the ball over 5 times.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

13 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

You can't expect a 2011 season every year, with or without Payton.  Saints offense set some significant records that year.  Manning didn't come close to his 2004 year until 2013

Well, fair point, it was a spectacular season. But at the same time, Peyton didn't drop off in 2005 and throw the most interceptions, he lead the league's most efficient offense for the 3rd year in a row that year. 

 

13 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

And lol at saying yardage doesn't matter.  They gave up over 7k yards that year, and were 31st in points.  That's a god awful defense however you slice it.

Manning is better than Brees, but anything to do with 2012 is a **** argument.

Strawman. I didn't say yardage didn't matter whatsoever. That is simply conveniently manipulating my argument. I said it is untrue that it was the worst defense of all-time, which it is correct. Most yardage ever/=/worst defense ever. Not even close to the same thing. 

 

13 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Manning is better than Brees, but anything to do with 2012 is a **** argument.

You're entirely missing the point. (again) 2012 was brought up to simply illustrate how much Brees benefits from Payton's coaching, when Peyton has had **** coordinators and has ultimately been essentially his own coordinator. I was simply reinforcing someone else's point and not necessarily "Peyton is better for this reason." 

That isn't the reason Peyton is better. Peyton is on another level from Brees for a laundry list of reasons. IMO ranking the modern era's QBs:

1T. Peyton Manning

1T. Tom Brady

 

3. Drew Brees

4. Aaron Rodgers

 

5. Kurt Warner 

[Jlowe22]

Just now, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

 

Strawman. I didn't say yardage didn't matter whatsoever. That is simply conveniently manipulating my argument. I said it is untrue that it was the worst defense of all-time, which it is correct. Most yardage ever/=/worst defense ever. Not even close to the same thing. 

 

You're entirely missing the point. (again) 2012 was brought up to simply illustrate how much Brees benefits from Payton's coaching, when Peyton has had **** coordinators and has ultimately been essentially his own coordinator. 

But that isn't the only reason Peyton is better. Peyton is on another level from Brees for a laundry list of reasons. IMO ranking the modern era's QBs:

1T. Peyton Manning

1T. Tom Brady

 

3. Drew Brees

4. Aaron Rodgers

 

5. Kurt Warner 

It's a **** argument because it wasn't Brees worst season.  And whether it was or wasn't doesn't change anything about the argument.  

You don't have to give me a laundry list of reasons why Peyton is better.  I have said repeatedly that Peyton is better.  In fact, I haven't even seen many other people say Brees is better.

 

[Asciimo]

8 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

I don't think he's the GOAT and never have, but it's funny how this discussion has evolved.  

Back in the day, it was Brees doesn't even sniff top 20.  Then it was Brees doesn't even sniff top ten.  Then it was, well Brees Is top ten, but doesn't even sniff top 5.  Then it was Brees is top 5 but is definitely not the GOAT.  

At this rate, he will be competing with Lebron James for greatest athlete of our time if he plays another 5 years.

the more great players play, the higher in the all time rankings they will end... more breaking news at 11.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

2 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

It's a **** argument because it wasn't Brees worst season.  And whether it was or wasn't doesn't change anything about the argument.  

It literally doesn't matter whether or not it was Brees's worst season. It simply illustrates that without Payton he is a lesser player. Goes from MVP runner-up,  one of the all-time most productive offenses, and breaking the yardage record to leading the league in interceptions and having about 20% lesser offensive production in Payton's absence. The difference from 2011-2012 in Payton's absence is very evident, that is all I'm saying. 

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

It literally doesn't matter whether or not it was Brees's worst season. It simply illustrates that without Payton he is a lesser player. Goes from MVP runner-up,  one of the all-time most productive offenses, and breaking the yardage record to leading the league in interceptions and having about 20% lesser offensive production in Payton's absence. The difference from 2011-2012 in Payton's absence is very evident, that is all I'm saying. 

But what I'm saying, is that Brees has had at least 1 season worse than 2012 under Payton, maybe 2. Despite Payton being the coach, he played worse than he did in 2012 without Payton.

Also, that the 2012 team had a long list of problems, Payton's absence was only one of them.  And wasn't like Payton was replaced with another head coach, Payton was replaced with an interim coach that wouldn't even pass Manning's standards for bad head coaches.

[tyler735]

4 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

This isn't a matter of whether or not he is simply a product of Payton. But it is obvious that he wouldn't be quite the same player without Payton. It doesn't matter if it wasn't his worst season as a Saint. The drop-off in quality was extremely evident from the previous season in which he DID have Sean Payton. He went from breaking the yardage record, being the MVP runner-up, and leading one of the most productive offenses of all time, to leading the league in picks, and leading an offense that was 20% less productive and efficient. 

 

The fact that he still did better than several QBs in the NFL is irrelevant. That is the standard for QBs in the GOAT conversation. 

Lol but he still had 5,144 passing yards and 44 touchdowns and a 96.3 QB Rating. Who cares if his interceptions were high in 2012 with 19. Brees threw 22 interceptions in 2010, 18 in 2007, and 17 in 2008 and 2014. This shows there is literally no connection between Brees not having a comparable season to 2011 without Payton in 2012. QB numbers fluctuate on a yearly basis. I'm just baffled by this, it is just such an absurd point that is trying to be made stating Drew struggled without Payton in 2012. If anything it shows Brees doesn't need Payton to put up crazy numbers.

[game3525]

Quote

But what I'm saying, is that Brees has had at least 1 season worse than 2012 under Payton, maybe 2. Despite Payton being the coach, he played worse than he did in 2012 without Payton.

He was worse in 2007, 2010, and 2014. All seasons in which Payton was there. So yeah there is really no correlation. 

Yes, Brees was worse in 2012 then 2011, but so was Brady and Rodgers. Everyone saw a significant drop off in 2012 from 2011. We forget, but 2011 was a lot like 2018 in which passing volume and efficiency sky-rocketed. So Brees regression the following year (as well as Rodgers and Brady) isn't that surprising. It would have happened even if Payton was coaching that year. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

44 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Lol but he still had 5,144 passing yards and 44 touchdowns and a 96.3 QB Rating. Who cares if his interceptions were high in 2012 with 19. Brees threw 22 interceptions in 2010, 18 in 2007, and 17 in 2008 and 2014. This shows there is literally no connection between Brees not having a comparable season to 2011 without Payton in 2012. QB numbers fluctuate on a yearly basis. I'm just baffled by this, it is just such an absurd point that is trying to be made stating Drew struggled without Payton in 2012. If anything it shows Brees doesn't need Payton to put up crazy numbers.

 

I mean, that QB rating still ranked 8th in the league that year. But in all of the aforementioned seasons the INT numbers weren't relatively as bad as in 2012. It is all relative. In 10' he was 2nd, 6th in 07', 3rd in 08', and 3rd in 14'.  I don't see how it isn't noteworthy that the only time in his entire career that Brees has lead the league in interceptions, it was without Sean Payton. It is a clear as day correlation. The ONLY time. And this was coming off the best season of his entire career. Struggled is a strong word and not the word that i used. You're putting words in my mouth. 

Sure, it isn't enormous, and Brees would still be great regardless, but from the evidence we have it appears he benefits significantly from it. 

[BlaqOptic]

11 hours ago, MrnastiesNO said:

Not to mention nor did Manning or Brady have any competition in there division... I am pretty sure that help there regular season winning percentages.

The Gerard era Jags didn’t exist? We gonna act like teams in the NFC South haven’t all had a #1 or #2 pick over the last decade?

[tyler735]

15 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

 

I mean, that QB rating still ranked 8th in the league that year. But in all of the aforementioned seasons the INT numbers weren't relatively as bad as in 2012. It is all relative. In 10' he was 2nd, 6th in 07', 3rd in 08', and 3rd in 14'.  I don't see how it isn't noteworthy that the only time in his entire career that Brees has lead the league in interceptions, it was without Sean Payton. It is a clear as day correlation. The ONLY time. And this was coming off the best season of his entire career. Struggled is a strong word and not the word that i used. You're putting words in my mouth. 

Sure, it isn't enormous, and Brees would still be great regardless, but from the evidence we have it appears he benefits significantly from it. 

There is literally no correlation. He had more interceptions in another year, similar interceptions in other years, and multiple seasons with higher interception percentages. It's time to move on it just simply isn't a valid argument you are trying to make. If anything the opposite is true and it shows Brees can succeed just fine without Payton.