Brees vs Manning

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

18 minutes ago, SWATcha said:

Nope. Just reading thru your responses, everything is irrelevant unless it supports your position. It's cool, you drew your line in the sand, and you 100% believe that Manning is better than Brees. I'm sure there's plenty who both support and disagree with that notion. 

I was originally reinforcing a point that somebody made about Payton and Brees, and they were consistently bringing up the defense as though that was relevant. We are comparing their merits as players, and people bring up one game as though it is relevant within the context of their careers. If things are irrelevant, I am going to say so, It isn't my fault people constantly bring up irrelevant things. 

 

21 minutes ago, SWATcha said:

Don't sit there and pretend you're actually comparing their careers as a whole though, when the only argument you keep reiterating over and over hinges on the single fact that Brees was never named MVP, and that he was only AP once.

I am comparing their careers. But that isn't "my entire argument" most of my time in this thread has been spent defending another person's point or being strawmanned and people accusing me of making arguments that I didn't even make. I didn't even get a chance to lay out an entire argument. But the MVP's and All-Pro selections does summarize well just how different these two players are in terms of their dominance of the NFL.  How their careers actually compare should be obvious. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

3 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Just destroying him with facts. Here comes the excuse that those numbers don't matter, but I'm sure he'll find some obscure number that will suddenly be of "importance".

LOL "destroying him with facts" okay dude. 

acknowledging actually using context and providing a legitimate one-to-one comparison is not "making excuses" and your ad hominem-esque comments are not arguments. 

[Raves]

1 minute ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

I was originally reinforcing a point that somebody made about Payton and Brees, and they were consistently bringing up the defense as though that was relevant. We are comparing their merits as players, and people bring up one game as though it is relevant within the context of their careers. If things are irrelevant, I am going to say so, It isn't my fault people constantly bring up irrelevant things. 

 

I am comparing their careers. But that isn't "my entire argument" most of my time in this thread has been spent defending another person's point or being strawmanned and people accusing me of making arguments that I didn't even make. I didn't even get a chance to lay out an entire argument. But the MVP's and All-Pro selections does summarize well just how different these two players are in terms of their dominance of the NFL.  How their careers actually compare should be obvious. 

You realize that the reason defense were brought up was because someone brought up winning % of Manning compared to Brees and how Manning was "leading" his team to these seasons when in fact he had help from the defensive side of the ball to let them reach those levels, something Brees didn't for the 6 years they missed the playoffs.

[Raves]

1 minute ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

LOL "destroying him with facts" okay dude. 

acknowledging actually using context and providing a legitimate one-to-one comparison is not "making excuses" and your ad hominem-esque comments are not arguments. 

You're not using context, facts, anything.  Simply saying no and arguing about MVPs and All-Pros.  Prove to me where a non-biased voting system shows that Manning is better than Brees.  I gave you all the stats already.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 minute ago, Raves said:

You realize that the reason defense were brought up was because someone brought up winning % of Manning compared to Brees and how Manning was "leading" his team to these seasons when in fact he had help from the defensive side of the ball to let them reach those levels, something Brees didn't for the 6 years they missed the playoffs.

Then why were you quoting me when you were saying this crap? I never even said anything remotely related to it. 

[sammymvpknight]

1 minute ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

I was originally reinforcing a point that somebody made about Payton and Brees, and they were consistently bringing up the defense as though that was relevant. We are comparing their merits as players, and people bring up one game as though it is relevant within the context of their careers. If things are irrelevant, I am going to say so, It isn't my fault people constantly bring up irrelevant things. 

 

I am comparing their careers. But that isn't "my entire argument" most of my time in this thread has been spent defending another person's point or being strawmanned and people accusing me of making arguments that I didn't even make. I didn't even get a chance to lay out an entire argument. But the MVP's and All-Pro selections does summarize well just how different these two players are in terms of their dominance of the NFL.  How their careers actually compare should be obvious. 

Manning is a great QB...one of the all-time greats. But he was also a #1 overall pick, had the ideal measurables entering the NFL, and the right name. Only a fool would argue that there isn’t bias when it comes to awards. Right now Brees is likely the front runner to win the MVP. It’s not that he’s undeserving of the award, but there is zero question that him being Drew Brees helps significantly when faced with Patrick Mahomes. I’m willing to admit it...you aren’t. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 minute ago, Raves said:

You're not using context, facts, anything.  Simply saying no and arguing about MVPs and All-Pros.  Prove to me where a non-biased voting system shows that Manning is better than Brees.  I gave you all the stats already.

I'm saying that you AREN'T using context, you're just disgustingly oversimplifying the statistics associated with it. 

Prove to me that the voting system is biased in the first place. Let's start there. Oh wait, you can't. 

[sammymvpknight]

3 minutes ago, Raves said:

You're not using context, facts, anything.  Simply saying no and arguing about MVPs and All-Pros.  Prove to me where a non-biased voting system shows that Manning is better than Brees.  I gave you all the stats already.

[Raves]

1 minute ago, sammymvpknight said:

Manning is a great QB...one of the all-time greats. But he was also a #1 overall pick, had the ideal measurables entering the NFL, and the right name. Only a fool would argue that there isn’t bias when it comes to awards. Right now Brees is likely the front runner to win the MVP. It’s not that he’s undeserving of the award, but there is zero question that him being Drew Brees helps significantly when faced with Patrick Mahomes. I’m willing to admit it...you aren’t. 

I mean Brees is kind of having an amazing year even if his name wasn't Brees.  At the same time Mahomes is getting a lot of help in people's minds due to the fact that he's a "23 y/o first year starter" so the idea of someone doing more than expected.

[El Ramster]

Manning sharts in Brees. 

[Raves]

2 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

I'm saying that you AREN'T using context, you're just disgustingly oversimplifying the statistics associated with it. 

Prove to me that the voting system is biased in the first place. Let's start there. Oh wait, you can't. 

Really?  How about the fact that unless you're on a winning team that you can't win the MVP?  We can go back and look at some of the years that Manning and others have won their MVP and I'm willing to bet that Brees put up a season that if he was on a winning team, not a 7-9 team due to a horrid defense, he would've been the MVP.  Like seriously, Cam Newton and Matt Ryan won MVPs but Brees hasn't, that should help you realize how biased the voting is.  I also pointed out that Manning never had to try and carry defenses as bad as Brees.

[Soko]

On 11/26/2018 at 8:01 AM, Raves said:

No one is arguing that Manning isn't amazing, most of us haven't even made the argument that Brees being over Manning, but just pointing out the flaws in other arguments and that Brees is right there with Manning, same argument we make with Brees v Brady.  Not that Brees > Brady, but Brees is and should be right there in the conversation.

Have you even posted your opinion ITT? Serious question, I feel majority of the guys arguing right now haven’t even said what they think. Just waiting for a take to come in and then jump all over it.

This is becoming a common trend in these threads. Either don’t take a side or coin something like “ehhh it’s a toss-up, but I’ll lean this way”, then fiercely argue for their guy and discredit the other anyway. 

And so I’m not called a hypocrite, I’ll say exactly what I think: I think Peyton is the superior QB all time to Brees. Picking apart their statistics is a largely futile effort for me. And I’m not going to give Manning a ton of credit for his second SB run. I do believe the Saints largely in the tougher division and they’ve fielded worse defenses overall. 

That said, Peyton has largely been his offense for most of his career. He had weapons, but he didn’t have an offensive mind like Payton (I’d argue a great offensive coach vs a bad one does more for an offense/QB than a great offensive cast vs a good one). He hasn’t had that type of coaching, really ever. For me, when splitting hairs against two all timers, that’s a big difference for me - Manning has been the one and only source of multiple all time great offenses. Brees has been the  most important piece to some consistently great offenses as well, but Payton shares that. The MVPs support that, even if you disagree with them.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

5 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

But he was also a #1 overall pick, had the ideal measurables entering the NFL, and the right name. Only a fool would argue that there isn’t bias when it comes to awards.

This is all just speculation. I'd prefer to actually be objective than to speculate that some arbitrary aspects associated with a player influences the decision. The performance of the player is how these things are decided. 

Even if they were biased. Let's pretend that they were for a second. That still wouldn't bridge the absolutely enormous gap in the aforementioned accolades. You can't attribute all of this to bias and dismiss it entirely because it conveniently fits your "argument." Even if they were biased they couldn't possibly be THAT biased for such an huge gap between them to exist. 

[tyler735]

8 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

LOL "destroying him with facts" okay dude. 

acknowledging actually using context and providing a legitimate one-to-one comparison is not "making excuses" and your ad hominem-esque comments are not arguments. 

Blatantly disregarding several legitimate points by posters over the course of this thread and claiming "strawman", and now victim doesn't help your case.

[tyler735]

5 minutes ago, El ramster said:

Manning sharts in Brees. 

Didn't know Manning was into that?