Brees vs Manning

[Soko]

7 minutes ago, Raves said:

I mean Brees is kind of having an amazing year even if his name wasn't Brees.  At the same time Mahomes is getting a lot of help in people's minds due to the fact that he's a "23 y/o first year starter" so the idea of someone doing more than expected.

So Brees is having an MVP caliber year regardless of name or context, but Mahomes is getting “help” because of a narrative? 

Lol.

[Raves]

7 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Have you even posted your opinion ITT? Serious question, I feel majority of the guys arguing right now haven’t even said what they think. Just waiting for a take to come in and then jump all over it.

This is becoming a common trend in these threads. Either don’t take a side or coin something like “ehhh it’s a toss-up, but I’ll lean this way”, then fiercely argue for their guy and discredit the other anyway. 

And so I’m not called a hypocrite, I’ll say exactly what I think: I think Peyton is the superior QB all time to Brees. Picking apart their statistics is a largely futile effort for me. And I’m not going to give Manning a ton of credit for his second SB run. I do believe the Saints largely in the tougher division and they’ve fielded worse defenses overall. 

That said, Peyton has largely been his offense for most of his career. He had weapons, but he didn’t have an offensive mind like Payton (I’d argue a great offensive coach vs a bad one does more for an offense/QB than a great offensive cast vs a good one). He hasn’t had that type of coaching, really ever. For me, when splitting hairs against two all timers, that’s a big difference for me - Manning has been the one and only source of multiple all time great offenses. Brees has been the  most important piece to some consistently great offenses as well, but Payton shares that. 

 

Not sure if I did, but I'll say it.  I think Brees is better, but it's very close.  You argue that Brees had Payton, but Brees was good and a Pro Bowler with Marty Schott IIRC and we all know how that dude ruins QBs.  I think having Payton definitely helps, but using that as an argument against Brees means you have to make Brady non-existent as he's been in the same overall system his entire career and even other QBs have come in and shown that they can play in their scheme to a high level, even if they are trash.  Also you can argue that Manning is his offense, but he's not the one calling the plays and he only really played with 2 different HCs.

Also Brees has been part of multiple all-time great offenses as well... if you look up the stats pretty sure you'll see the Saints + Brees in teh top 10 just as much as Manning.

[Raves]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

So Brees is having an MVP caliber year regardless of name or context, but Mahomes is getting “help” because of a narrative? 

Lol.

They are both having MVP Caliber years regardless of name or context, something Brees has had a few times in his career, and both are also getting help in comparison to the #3-5 MVP candidates due to narrative who are having years as good or better than the years Cam Newton and Matt Ryan won MVPs.

[El Ramster]

3 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Didn't know Manning was into that?

I haven’t bothered reading. But are you homer saint fans really trying to say Brees belongs with manning? I hope not. I get our banter is good, but if y’all really do think this. Then yall

beyond homers. 

[Raves]

1 minute ago, El ramster said:

I haven’t bothered reading. But are you homer saint fans really trying to say Brees belongs with manning? I hope not. I get our banter is good, but if y’all really do think this. Then yall

beyond homers. 

Rammy, I love you, but you're the last person that should be calling people homers.  Unless of course you mean we're crazy because he's better than Manning, then I have to say although I agree, I think they are really close and belong in the same conversation.

I think Brees belongs right there with Manning.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

5 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Blatantly disregarding several legitimate points by posters over the course of this thread and claiming "strawman", and now victim doesn't help your case.

I never disregarded anything. Most of my time in this thread has literally been spent people arguing against points that I never made and pretending that I made them. 

[El Ramster]

2 minutes ago, Raves said:

Rammy, I love you, but you're the last person that should be calling people homers.  Unless of course you mean we're crazy because he's better than Manning, then I have to say although I agree, I think they are really close and belong in the same conversation.

I think Brees belongs right there with Manning.

lol ok im out 

[CP3MVP]

On 11/26/2018 at 8:37 AM, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

No, I'm not "rewriting history" I'm simply stating a fact that Brees does not have better stats than Peyton Manning. Maybe if you're irrationally viewing some stats in a vacuum, but again, that's irrational. 

A reward/acknowledgement of a single specific player is not "a reward based on team success" and any team success associated with it is a direct function of their play. You're just conveniently excusing Brees for only ever being named the best player at his position once in his entire career. 

Brees literally has nothing on Peyton. Nothing.

1.)Brees has/will have higher volume numbers and his per game stats are superior. He has a higher passer rating, completion percentage, YPG etc. All of Peyton’s records will be Brees by the time his career is over

2.) Being the “best QB” is largely a function of competition that year and team record. Brees 2011 season destroys Every Peyton first team all pro season aside from 2004 and 2013. The difference is Brees was competing against AaRon Rodgers who had a top 5 season in history . The same is true for Brees 2014,2015,2016,2017 Seasons. All better than manning 03,08,09 MVP years

[Raves]

3 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)Brees has/will have higher volume numbers and his per game stats are superior. He has a higher passer rating, completion percentage, YPG etc. All of Peyton’s records will be Brees by the time his career is over

2.) Being the “best QB” is largely a function of competition that year and team record. Brees 2011 season destroys Every Peyton first team all pro season aside from 2004 and 2013. The difference is Brees was competing against AaRon Rodgers who had a top 5 season in history . The same is true for Brees 2014,2015,2016,2017 Seasons. All better than manning 03,08,09 MVP years

Brees has had really bad luck when he's had all time great seasons... even this year which would be a shoe-in for virtually any other year to be MVP has him battling with Mahomes and he still might end up losing out based on the way Voters decide to go.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

 

 

14 minutes ago, Raves said:

Like seriously, Cam Newton and Matt Ryan won MVPs but Brees hasn't, that should help you realize how biased the voting is.

Cam Newton and Matt Ryan both had seasons where they dominated the NFL and were clearly the best player at QB that season,(QB's usually are the MVP's) and won the MVP accordingly despite not having the "big name." So if anything, this shows that the voting isn't biased. 

Unfortunately for Brees, the only reason that he was recognized as the best QB in the league, it just so happened LT decided he would score 31 TDs that season so he didn't get the MVP. So obviously, there are other factors involved. 

[Soko]

16 minutes ago, Raves said:

Not sure if I did, but I'll say it.  I think Brees is better, but it's very close.  You argue that Brees had Payton, but Brees was good and a Pro Bowler with Marty Schott IIRC and we all know how that dude ruins QBs.  I think having Payton definitely helps, but using that as an argument against Brees means you have to make Brady non-existent as he's been in the same overall system his entire career and even other QBs have come in and shown that they can play in their scheme to a high level, even if they are trash.  Also you can argue that Manning is his offense, but he's not the one calling the plays and he only really played with 2 different HCs.

Also Brees has been part of multiple all-time great offenses as well... if you look up the stats pretty sure you'll see the Saints + Brees in teh top 10 just as much as Manning.

I don’t want to get Brady into the thread, but what you said isn’t true. Brady has worked with multiple OCs and the offense has changed very much over the years (focuses - short intermediate early, heavy run Corey Dillon, vertical with Moss, two tight end, option routes). 

And for the all time comment: of the top 10 scoring offenses all time, Manning has two appearances (#1 and #10) to Brees’ one (#6). 

Anyway, my point was that a lot of the people arguing right now haven’t even made their stances known. They just argue to the death for their team’s guy, and then say “hey, I’m not saying blah blah”. I haven’t really seen anyone say why Brees is better or as good as Peyton - really just trying to discredit poster that say otherwise, if not just post stats.

[game3525]

Quote

Unfortunately for Brees, the only reason that he was recognized as the best QB in the league, it just so happened LT decided he would score 31 TDs that season so he didn't get the MVP. So obviously, there are other factors involved. 

 

Funny thing is Brees shouldn't have been all-pro that year, Peyton was better. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

6 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Brees 2011 season destroys Every Peyton first team all pro season aside from 2004 and 2013. The difference is Brees was competing against AaRon Rodgers who had a top 5 season in history . The same is true for Brees 2014,2015,2016,2017 Seasons. All better than manning 03,08,09 MVP years

You realize that those types of numbers didn't exist in 03/08/09? You conveniently bring up how Brees's numbers compare to numbers of completely different seasons with entirely different landscapes altogether. You had 3 and almost 4 5,000 yard seasons in 11'. It was a completely different league than in 03/04/08/09 that's completely insane to compare them. 

The state of how the game is played and how defenses played in all of the seasons you mentioned for Brees are completely different. That may be whyfor the most part Peyton had way better numbers as a Bronco than he did as a Colt, because passing was easier at the time. You can't compare numbers for 03' to 14', 15', 16' . 

15 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

1.)Brees has/will have higher volume numbers and his per game stats are superior. He has a higher passer rating, completion percentage, YPG etc. All of Peyton’s records will be Brees by the time his career is over

Again, viewing numbers in a vacuum. Means next to nothing. Peyton played 6 full seasons in a league with different rules entirely, and it doesn't take into account the offensive explosion post-2011. It is an incredibly unfair comparison. I guess it works if you like to be lazy about it but otherwise it is an extremely flawed method of comparison. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

8 minutes ago, game3525 said:

Funny thing is Brees shouldn't have been all-pro that year, Peyton was better. 

Eh it's close. Brees was really good that year. I guess it fits as a good microcosm of their careers, Brees was always good, but he was almost never better. Brees should rightfully stay in Peyton and Brady's shadows. He's not on the same level as them. 

I really don't have time to amass a real comparison between the two players, but I think I might anyway soon. 

[game3525]

11 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Eh it's close. Brees was really good that year. I guess it fits as a good microcosm of their careers, Brees was always good, but he was almost never better. Brees should rightfully stay in Peyton and Brady's shadows. He's not on the same level as them. 

He was great, but Peyton had one of his best seasons in 2006.  First in passer rating, second in passing yards, first in touchdown passes, first in ANY/A, and just a 1.6 INT rate. Again, Brees was great and was the catalyst for NO turn around, but he should have been on the all-pro second team, with Peyton being on the first team.