Brees vs Manning

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

46 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

Things based upon bias and subjective beliefs...indeed the gap widens. Lol at you being the objective one. 

Obviously I'm biased and every Saints fan in the conversation is biased, you'd be ridiculous not to admit that. It becomes less objective when you just dismiss things completely for arbitrary reasons like has been happening. 

[sammymvpknight]

26 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Obviously I'm biased and every Saints fan in the conversation is biased, you'd be ridiculous not to admit that. It becomes less objective when you just dismiss things completely for arbitrary reasons like has been happening. 

You poo poo the objective while heavily weighting subjective measures. You’ve done it for pages now, so don’t act like Saints fans are the only ones making arbitrary claims. You’re fighting a losing battle. Anyone who has done research knows that “proving” non-inferiority is infinitely easier than “proving” superiority. Saints fans are going to win on that account alone. But good luck to ya. 

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

23 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

You poo poo the objective while heavily weighting subjective measures. You’ve done it for pages now, so don’t act like Saints fans are the only ones making arbitrary claims.

That's completely ridiculous. There's nothing subjective about Statistics, offensive production and career accolades. All of them are objectively quantified and measured. Your interpretation of them is subjective of course, but I sure as hell am not "heavily weighting subjective measures and poo pooing the objective." You're simply delusional. 

[Raves]

4 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

That's completely ridiculous. There's nothing subjective about Statistics, offensive production and career accolades. All of them are objectively quantified and measured. Your interpretation of them is subjective of course, but I sure as hell am not "heavily weighting subjective measures and poo pooing the objective." You're simply delusional. 

nvm i said I was done and I'm not starting back in

[MookieMonstah]

Statistics need context. I'd hope Manning had more "offensive production" given the fact that he played with a little pro bowl lineup for a good chunk of his career. He had 2 Pro Bowl WRs, a Pro Bowl HB, multiple Pro Bowl OL and Dallas Clark was no slouch at TE. You cant just post statistics, ignore the context behind them and then just pound the table and whine when other people rightfully point out the issue with them.

Acting as if Brees isn't in the same stratosphere as Manning is insulting to Brees. He's been right there with Manning his entire career, and to be fair Manning absolutely robbed Brees of MVP in 09' if we want to use Mannings MVPs against Brees. Brees was better across the board statistically while playing one less game.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

24 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

He had 2 Pro Bowl WRs, a Pro Bowl HB, multiple Pro Bowl OL and Dallas Clark was no slouch at TE.

Who is to say as many or any of those players would have been Pro Bowlers without Peyton? Dallas Clark wasn't exactly a hot commodity leaving Indianapolis and Peyton has literally pulled up guys from the practice squad and pushed them to a 10 TD pace in a season. It would be ridiculous if the most dominant offense over this period DIDN'T have tons of Pro Bowlers because they will inevitably have production playing in that offense. It is all pure speculation is the point. You simply have no idea how much any of these players were products of each other. But since I'm not one to arbitrarily speculate:

Reggie Wayne's averages in 4 years after Peyton: 84 catches,1,066 yards and 3 touchdowns

Reggie Wayne's averages in 4 years with Peyton: 99 catches, 1,319 yards and 8 touchdowns

Obviously not gigantic, but a clear dropoff playing with Peyton and then playing with Luck/assorted other QBs. Would barely 1,000 yards and just a couple TDs per year be enough to be a perennial Pro Bowler? Maybe, maybe not. Still speculation though, but more objective speculation considering I'm actually using facts unlike yourself. 

You're still arbitrarily dismissing the huge disparity in every single category. Brees is literally worse in every conceivable way.  From a numbers perspective he is literally only better at completing passes at a higher rate which amounts to absolutely nothing because he accumulates fewer yards, less touchdowns and more interceptions. The statistics would get even uglier if I made things on a per dropback basis instead of a per pass thrown basis. Peyton is the possibly hardest QB of all time to sack and almost never fumbles, so the disparity would grow even larger than it already is. 

 

24 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Acting as if Brees isn't in the same stratosphere as Manning is insulting to Brees. He's been right there with Manning his entire career, and to be fair Manning absolutely robbed Brees of MVP in 09' if we want to use Mannings MVPs against Brees. Brees was better across the board statistically while playing one less game.

We can play this game if you want. As pointed out earlier, Peyton was better than 06' Brees in every statistical category. If you were to change these accordingly it would look like this:

Peyton: 4 MVP's, 7 All-Pro's

Brees: 1 MVP, 2 All-Pro's

And it is still a complete landslide 

They were literally never on the same level. Brees vs Manning was never a debate during their careers, and there's a reason for that. Peyton vs Brady is a more appropriate comparison. 

[MookieMonstah]

6 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said:

Who is to say as many or any of those players would have been Pro Bowlers without Peyton? Dallas Clark wasn't exactly a hot commodity leaving Indianapolis and Peyton has literally pulled up guys from the practice squad and pushed them to a 10 TD pace in a season. It would be ridiculous if the most dominant offense over this period DIDN'T have tons of Pro Bowlers because they will inevitably have production playing in that offense. It is all pure speculation is the point. You simply have no idea how much any of these players were products of each other. But since I'm not one to arbitrarily speculate:

Reggie Wayne's averages in 4 years after Peyton: 84 catches,1,066 yards and 3 touchdowns

Reggie Wayne's averages in 4 years with Peyton: 99 catches, 1,319 yards and 8 touchdowns

Obviously not gigantic, but a clear dropoff playing with Peyton and then playing with Luck/assorted other QBs. Would barely 1,000 yards and just a couple TDs per year be enough to be a perennial Pro Bowler? Maybe, maybe not. Still speculation though, but more objective speculation considering I'm actually using facts unlike yourself. 

You're still arbitrarily dismissing the huge disparity in every single category. Brees is literally worse in every conceivable way.  From a numbers perspective he is literally only better at completing passes at a higher rate which amounts to absolutely nothing because he accumulates fewer yards, less touchdowns and more interceptions. The statistics would get even uglier if I made things on a per dropback basis instead of a per pass thrown basis. Peyton is the possibly hardest QB of all time to sack and almost never fumbles, so the disparity would grow even larger than it already is. 

 

We can play this game if you want. As pointed out earlier, Peyton was better than 06' Brees in every statistical category. If you were to change these accordingly it would look like this:

Peyton: 4 MVP's, 7 All-Pro's

Brees: 1 MVP, 2 All-Pro's

And it is still a complete landslide 

They were literally never on the same level. Brees vs Manning was never a debate during their careers, and there's a reason for that. Peyton vs Brady is a more appropriate comparison. 

Brees has been an All-Pro 4 times. The lengths you're going to try and discredit Brees is ridiculous. Lets look at career stats, Brees has played 6 less games than Manning has.

Brees -73,580 yards, 517 TD, 230 INT, 67.3 completion%, 7.6 YPA, 5.4 TD%, 2.4 INT%

Manning - 71,940 yards, 539 TD, 251 INT, 65.3 completion%, 7.7 YPA, 5.7 TD%, 2.7 INT%

Playoff stats

Brees (13 games) - 4209 yards, 29 TD, 9 INT, 65.9 completion%, 7.8 YPA, 5.4 TD%, 1.7 INT%

Manning (27 games) - 7339 yards, 40 TD, 25 INT, 63.2 completion%, 7.1 YPA, 3.9 TD%, 2.4 INT%

 

Brees has been far better in the playoffs than Manning has and is on pace to absolutely SHATTER all of Mannings marks, while basically being deployed as a game manager by San Diego for the start of his career. Payton gets the most out of Brees 100%, but Manning spent his entire career in a good situation. Surrounded by oodles and oodles of talent in Indianapolis and Denver, its not even close. Manning didn't make Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James or Marvin Harrison, those guys are Pro Bowl talents with or without him. Same for guys like Alvin Kamara and Jimmy Graham in New Orleans. Brees was never in the argument because he was constantly overshadowed by the Brady/Manning argument, he "flew under the radar" for most of his career in New Orleans compared to those two and it cost him an MVP. I'm a Patriots fan, I have a soft spot for the Saints as my dad and grandpa have been Saints fans as long as I can remember and I frequent the area constantly but you very clearly have a horse in this race and your bias is very evident.

[Buddyboy]

On 11/23/2018 at 5:20 PM, Blackstar12 said:

I’ll always rank Brees behind Brady and Manning but he’ll close the gap on Manning.

The next generation QBs are already playing.  If they have full careers, Brees and Manning will be best remembered on video.

Norm Van Brocklin and Bobby Layne, both born in 1926, entered the league in 48/49. Hall of fame careers on dynasty teams. VB played to 60, BL 62. 

B/W film looks vintage. Could they play in this era? Top 20.

The GOAT? Charlie Connerly, who taught Lombardi offense.

[Mox]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:49 AM, tyler735 said:

It is literally a career year for most QBs and statistically was still very impressive despite the turnovers. It wasn't his worst season at QB for the Saints. Brees had a 2.8 interception percentage that year which was better than 12 teams that year. He still threw for 5,177, 96.3 QB Rating, and 44 touchdowns. If we are going to cherry pick one stat in an attempt to discredit Brees's season we should probably add more context to said stat. In other words, as I said before it just simply isn't really a good point of view that he was trying to make.

A lot of QBs would have career years if they threw the ball nearly 700 times.

[LieutenantGains]

44 minutes ago, Buddyboy said:

The next generation QBs are already playing.  If they have full careers, Brees and Manning will be best remembered on video.

Norm Van Brocklin and Bobby Layne, both born in 1926, entered the league in 48/49. Hall of fame careers on dynasty teams. VB played to 60, BL 62. 

B/W film looks vintage. Could they play in this era? Top 20.

The GOAT? Charlie Connerly, who taught Lombardi offense.

What the hell?

[tyler735]

7 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

A lot of QBs would have career years if they threw the ball nearly 700 times.

Drew Brees threw the ball 670 time in 2012 for 5,177 yards, and 44 touchdowns.

Manning threw the ball 679 times in 2010 for 4700 yards 33 touchdowns

Rivers threw the ball 661 times in 2015 for 4792 yards, 29 touchdowns

Stafford threw the ball 727 times in 2012 for 4967 yards, 20 touchdowns

Flacco threw the ball 672 times in 2016 for 4317 yards, and 20 touchdowns

Bledsoe threw the ball 691 times in 1994 for 4555 yards, and 20 touchdowns

 

Lots of passing attempts doesn't usually equate to the gaudy numbers Brees was able to put up in 2012. Sure there have been several better seasons by QB's in NFL history, but those numbers have rarely been topped regardless of pass attempts. These QB's listed above all had years in which they had similar passing attempts and were nowhere near Brees's 2012 season when he played without head coach Sean Payton. I'm aware Manning has had better years than his 2010 season, but it shows that Brees isn't simply a product of success due to throwing "the ball nearly 700 times"

[Mox]

1 minute ago, tyler735 said:

Drew Brees threw the ball 670 time in 2012 for 5,177 yards, and 44 touchdowns.

Manning threw the ball 679 times in 2010 for 4700 yards 33 touchdowns

Rivers threw the ball 661 times in 2015 for 4792 yards, 29 touchdowns

Stafford threw the ball 727 times in 2012 for 4967 yards, 20 touchdowns

Flacco threw the ball 672 times in 2016 for 4317 yards, and 20 touchdowns

Bledsoe threw the ball 691 times in 1994 for 4555 yards, and 20 touchdowns

 

Lots of passing attempts doesn't usually equate to the gaudy numbers Brees was able to put up in 2012. Sure there have been several better seasons by QB's in NFL history, but those numbers have rarely been topped regardless of pass attempts. These QB's listed above all had years in which they had similar passing attempts and were nowhere near Brees's 2012 season when he played without head coach Sean Payton. I'm aware Manning has had better years than his 2010 season, but it shows that Brees isn't simply a product of success due to throwing "the ball nearly 700 times"

I'm not saying it wasn't a great season but if other elites like Rodgers/Brady/Manning (you do have one example there but he's topped that production multiple times too) threw that often that season wouldn't really stand out between them.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Brees has been an All-Pro 4 times. The lengths you're going to try and discredit Brees is ridiculous.

In this thread, and the way it is generally used, the phrase "All-Pro" is short hand for "AP First-team All-Pro", and that is the way I was using it. Nothing disingenuous about it, I'm not going to ANY lengths to discredit Brees, I am simply comparing the two players objectively. Drew Brees has only achieved that one time in his entire career. In this hypothetical scenario where you discredited Peyotn's 09' MVP, and claim Brees should have gotten it instead on the grounds that you believe that he had better stats, as mentioned earlier in this thread, Peyton has demonstrably better stats in 06', so in this hypothetical scenario we would give the All-Pro selection to Peyton for 06' and the MVP and the All-Pro for 09' to Brees, and Peyton still has achieved better accolades in a complete landslide is what I was saying. So you're point about 09' is a moot point. 

 

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Brees -73,580 yards, 517 TD, 230 INT, 67.3 completion%, 7.6 YPA, 5.4 TD%, 2.4 INT%

Manning - 71,940 yards, 539 TD, 251 INT, 65.3 completion%, 7.7 YPA, 5.7 TD%, 2.7 INT%

I have already explained how this is a very lazy, unfair, and downright inaccurate comparison. Not only are you comparing numbers when they aren't even playing under the same rules, but you are also using a comparison of seasons like 05' and 16-18 where the numbers are exponentially more inflated and 40 TD's is the new 30 TD's that could be from many different variables changing. More frequent and less frequent PI calls, the inception of defenseless receivers, targeting, and what not. Objectively, we can see the average passer rating/efficiency numbers are far above what they were a decade ago and it is simply lazy, unfair and inaccurate to compare seasons like 05'-07' to 16'-18' as if they are remotely the same league even if they were both after the 04' rule changes. 

You control for everything when you compare when they played under the same rules, at the same time, and Peyton completely blows Brees out of the water in every area like I have already shown. And again, it would be even less close, if we went deeper and into a per pass-play basis and not a per pass thrown basis. 

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Brees has been far better in the playoffs than Manning has and is on pace to absolutely SHATTER all of Mannings marks, while basically being deployed as a game manager by San Diego for the start of his career.

He should shatter all of Peyton's marks. Peyton played 6 full-seasons, threw thousands of passes  with completely different rules and Brees has simply benefitted from not having to deal with that harder era of the pre-04' rules, where the numbers were simply way down compared to post 04', Brees has also played a ton of time in this post 2011-offensive explosion of things, and so going by the tendencies of the league, Brees SHOULD shatter Peyton's marks. 

As far as being better in the playoffs, he has a smaller sample size and as already brought up several times in this thread, has played much less defenses compared to Peyton in the playoffs. 

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Brees was never in the argument because he was constantly overshadowed by the Brady/Manning argument, he "flew under the radar" for most of his career

As he should. He was overshadowed by the Brady/Manning talk because he is simply far inferior to both of those players. There's a reason why he wasn't talked about while the other two were. 

 

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

Manning didn't make Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James or Marvin Harrison, those guys are Pro Bowl talents with or without him.

I mean Edge is a RB so he is influenced less and so I'm sure that he would have similar performances on other teams. But the others are receivers that you have no idea if they could be Pro Bowlers without Peyton. I'm not going to say he "made" them, but you don't know what they would have done. 333

I already showed that Wayne's production is significantly less without Peyton, and Harrison didn't even play without Peyton. Like I said, Peyton literally pulled guys up from the practice squad and put them at a 10 TD pace for the season. They could or could not, but it just comes down to speculation how they would fair without each other. 

1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

I have a soft spot for the Saints as my dad and grandpa have been Saints fans as long as I can remember and I frequent the area constantly but you very clearly have a horse in this race and your bias is very evident.

....so you're admitting that you're biased and then chastising me for being biased? What?

[tyler735]

13 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I'm not saying it wasn't a great season but if other elites like Rodgers/Brady/Manning (you do have one example there but he's topped that production multiple times too) threw that often that season wouldn't really stand out between them.

That's the problem. Earlier in the thread, that season was used by another poster to say that Brees struggled without Payton as head coach, but outside of a few more interceptions than you'd like to see, it was still a great season statistically that has rarely been matched.

Brees 2012 season was:

8th most passing touchdowns in NFL history

5th most passing yards in NFL history. Only 2 QB's not named Brees have had a season with more passing yards.

[C0LTSFAN4L1F3]

47 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

that season was used by another poster to say that Brees struggled without Payton as head coach

Literally nobody said that. This is what you repeatedly manipulated their point into. 

49 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Brees 2012 season was:

8th most passing touchdowns in NFL history

5th most passing yards in NFL history. Only 2 QB's not named Brees have had a season with more passing yards.

Saying the "in NFL history" doesn't really mean anything because everybody at the top in history is obviously going to be playing recently in this pass-friendly era. Dan Marino is the season in the top 20 in passing yards in NFL history that played before the year 2000, and the entire top 5 has taken place during or after the explosion in 2011. It doesn't actually indicate a relatively fantastic season like you are making it out to be. 

Oh, and again, only time in his entire career to lead the league in picks.