Vikings fire OC John DeFilippo

[Dr LBC]

9 minutes ago, The Gnat said:

Honestly, feels a bit like that. Can we just have Shurmur back?

I mean I bring it up largely because of something I noted in the post I just made above... Zimmer looks like he keeps pulling from the wrong part (the Dallas part) of his Rolodex with his OC hires (Norv being one of them).  I don't know that you necessarily need to go directly from the Shanahan/Sieffert coaching tree to match Kirk up with the best scheme for him, but something that's more of a West Coast style scheme like what Shurmur ran is clearly a better fit than the Coryell is.

[Nzd07]

2 minutes ago, N4L said:

Agreed with Keenum. That would have been a worse signing. 

You are completely missing the point. Obviously the top 6 offensive teams are going to have talent. That has nothing to do with what I am saying. I am saying that offensive coaches are harder to replace than defensive ones, and that offensive coaches consistently get poached from teams with good offenses, meaning the 'good offense' is highly likely to take a step backward.

A sub point (below my main argument and less relevant to the discussion) is that you can have an average offense with below average talent, if you have the right coach. Certainly possible on defense as well, but less likely. 

Again, offensive coaches are less easily replaced. Having a good OC means there is a high likelihood that you will have to replace them. That is detrimental to your team's short term success. 

You haven't really brought up any specific examples to support your argument, though. You're just making a generalized statement without much proof to back it up.

[IotaNet]

7 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

We're on the hook for 10M of the 21M next year.   Which basically ties us to him, given how bad the FA class is next year.  So yeah...we're stuck with him for 2019.

I get it, you like to pile on your division rival.  But take it from the guy who's got to watch Keenum play each week - it's a horror show.   Elway would run to the podium to take Cousins' contract for 56/2 for the 21M/1 of Keenum.     I rarely say this - but the take that Cousins is worse than Keenum for the $ isn't a meatball take - meatballs have some value.   That's truly hot, hot, hot garbage (I'd add a 4th hot - but that only applies to Keenum's play).

No piling on at all. I'm a Bears fan but I live in Minneapolis and drive by the Vikes practice facility almost every day. (It's the Packers I hate). Its just that I never bought Cousins as the savior that he was made out to be -- especially here in this town. $84M guaranteed?  He never did anything to earn that kind of (unprecedented!) coin. What we are all seeing is exactly what he is. A solid, above-average NFL QB who does nothing to elevate his team. Heck, Kaepernick could have provided this -- for a lot less than $84M.

[Pugger]

2 hours ago, Outpost31 said:

Hey!  Hey!  @ the person who ridiculed me for pointing out that the Vikings offense was worse under Defilipo.  Who were you?  Show yourself! 

So so so so so glad he got fired.  I've been calling him out all year and I've been arguing with Packer fans that he would be a terrible head coach and that he has wildly under coached the talent on that offense. 

So glad the Packers won't be hiring a guy who has thrived under greater minds.  Whew. 

God, let's hope so!!!

[since72]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

With DeFilippo the thing is he's an awesome QB coach.    Still probably is.  But man, he was completely outmatched as an OC this year.    

DeFilippo made 3 stunningly bad moves in MIN:

1.   Used Latavius Murray in an almost even timeshare over Dalvin Cook.

Agree with your #2 and #3 points, but disagree with this if you're suggesting Cook should get more time.

In 2017, Vikings were 2-2 when Cook was the leading rusher for the game.  8-0 when Murray was the leading rusher.

So far this season, Vikings are 1-3-1 when Cook is the leading rusher.  5-1 when Murray was the leading rusher.

My complaint is the Vikings aren't playing Murray more.

[Broncofan]

55 minutes ago, IotaNet said:

No piling on at all. I'm a Bears fan but I live in Minneapolis and drive by the Vikes practice facility almost every day. (It's the Packers I hate). Its just that I never bought cousins as the savior that he was made out to be -- especially here in this town. $84M guaranteed?  For Cousins???  He never did anything to earn that kind of (unprecedented!) coin.

Here's the thing - Cousins has 100x more hope that he's the answer than Keenum.   Literally 100x more.   For 10M more, it's a nobrainer.  The fact that Case Keenum got 18M a year for 2 years that basically can't be walked away from shows how QB's are paid.   But if you ask a team to pay 10M more for a Kirk Cousins, it's money well spent.   

Keenum is probably going to be a career backup, while Cousins will likely be a 6-8 year starter, and frankly, I do think he'll be a top 10 QB - that's the going rate nowadays.   Alex Smith got 71/3.   It's the going rate.    The whole concept of being worth the $ is always such a trap - if you are a top-10 QB, or are a generational non-QB, you get paid.   It's always out of proportion to team percentages - but that's life nowadays in the NFL.   

If you look at the 7 guys who aren't extensions from their own team this year - Sam Bradford 20M, Josh McCown 10M, Teddy B 5M, Tyrod Taylor 16M (trade), Alex Smith 71/3, Kirk Cousins 84/3, and Case Keenum 36/2 - Cousins is by FAR the best deal on the market - except for Teddy B's 5M - and let's face it, no one thought he would get it all back - and frankly, he's now going to likely get paid similarly extravagant rates in FA (23-24M here we come) - with even LESS background to work off.   

[Nzd07]

2 minutes ago, since72 said:

Agree with your #2 and #3 points, but disagree with this if you're suggesting Cook should get more time.

In 2017, Vikings were 2-2 when Cook was the leading rusher for the game.  8-0 when Murray was the leading rusher.

So far this season, Vikings are 1-3-1 when Cook is the leading rusher.  5-1 when Murray was the leading rusher.

My complaint is the Vikings aren't playing Murray more.

Cook has been hurt a lot in his early career. A healthy Dalvin Cook is way better than Murray.

[Broncofan]

1 minute ago, since72 said:

Agree with your #2 and #3 points, but disagree with this if you're suggesting Cook should get more time.

In 2017, Vikings were 2-2 when Cook was the leading rusher for the game.  8-0 when Murray was the leading rusher.

So far this season, Vikings are 1-3-1 when Cook is the leading rusher.  5-1 when Murray was the leading rusher.

My complaint is the Vikings aren't playing Murray more.

Agree to disagree.  Cook is literally the only hope your run game has.   Murray is JAG at this stage of his career.   

The 6 games Murray was the leading rusher - ARI, SF, NYJ, PHI NO (L), GB 2nd at home (5-1)

The 5 games you are referring to where Cook was the leading rusher - NE on road, GB on road, CHI on road, LAR & NO at home - 1-3-1.  

Using Cook over Murray more isn't going to swing those games.  The strength of competition is pretty clearly grossly tilted to W's in those 6 games, and L's. 

[IotaNet]

12 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Here's the thing - Cousins has 100x more hope that he's the answer than Keenum.   Literally 100x more.   For 9M more, it's a nobrainer.  The fact that Case Keenum got 18M a year for 2 years that basically can't be walked away from shows how QB's are paid.   But if you ask a team to pay 10M more for a Kirk Cousins, it's money well spent.   

Keenum is probably going to be a career backup, while Cousins will likely be a 6-8 year starter, and frankly, I do think he'll be a top 10 QB - that's the going rate nowadays.   Alex Smith got 71/3.   It's the going rate.    The whole concept of being worth the $ is always such a trap - if you are a top-10 QB, or are a generational non-QB, you get paid.   It's always out of proportion to team percentages - but that's life nowadays in the NFL.   

If you look at the 7 guys who aren't extensions from their own team this year - Sam Bradford 20M, Josh McCown 10M, Teddy B 5M, Tyrod Taylor 16M (trade), Alex Smith 71/3, Kirk Cousins 84/3, and Case Keenum 36/2 - Cousins is by FAR the best deal on the market - except for Teddy B's 5M - and let's face it, no one thought he would get it all back - and frankly, he's now going to likely get paid similarly extravagant rates in FA (23-24M here we come) - with even LESS background to work off.   

If you say so. And if the Vikings like it, I love it. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another

But $84M guaranteed is a lot of money for what we saw last night. I hate to quote Bleacher Report but here's an interesting story on this very item:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2810194-this-is-not-what-the-minnesota-vikings-paid-for?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

[WindyCity]

26 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

We're on the hook for 10M of the 21M next year.   Which basically ties us to him, given how bad the FA class is next year.  So yeah...we're stuck with him for 2019.

I get it, you like to pile on your division rival.  But take it from the guy who's got to watch Keenum play each week - it's a horror show.   DEN has faced ARI, CIN, SF, SEA's week 1 D, NYJ, OAK & the KC pass D twice - behind an OL that's been way better than MIN's.      And Keenum's been ABSOLUTELY DREADFUL.  Take a long hard look at that schedule - the only way a QB can be that bad...well, it's that they are truly hot garbage.   That's Keenum.    At 5M it would be awful.   At 36/2?   It's a freaking horror show.  And yeah, nothing like Kirk Cousins behind a bottom 3 OL facing a 1st place schedule and an OC that believes in long-developing plays and zero adaptation.  Sorry, that's just a terrible, terrible take.

Elway would run to the podium to take Cousins' contract for 56/2 for the 21M/1 of Keenum.     I rarely say this - but the take that Cousins is worse than Keenum for the $ isn't a meatball take -  at least meatballs have some value.   That take is truly hot, hot, hot garbage (I'd add a 4th hot - but that only applies to Keenum's play).

They both can be bad.

[Nzd07]

1 minute ago, IotaNet said:

If you say so. And if the Vikings like it, I love it. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another

But $84M guaranteed is a lot of money for what we saw last night. 

Let's look at what's really happening. Earlier in the year the schedule was soft and Kirk was playing well. He's had some bad primetime games against good teams and everyone is now taking a dump on him. I'd like to see the guy with some decent pass protection before I form any opinions on the guy. 

[Broncofan]

Just now, IotaNet said:

If you say so. And if the Vikings like it, I love it. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another

But $84M guaranteed is a lot of money for what we saw last night. 

A 1.1 pick is a lot to spend for what LAR saw on SNF.  So, we should draw conclusions off that, right? 

I totally agree that Cousins has to prove he's worth it.  But that's not the argument you made - you tried to argue that the better idea was to keep Case Keenum, a 7-year journeyman who now is playing against a much easier schedule, on a much better OL, and who has literally played as a bottom 5 QB.  And we're stuck with him for 2 full years.    It's an awful premise.   If you see how crazy a take that is, then sure, let's have the will-Cousins-live-up-to-the-deal Q discussion.   

But again there, let's try to look at the whole body of work and place the blame where it belongs - some of it belongs on Cousins for sure.  The OL's play takes a bunch, and then the rest belongs squarely on the OC.   MIN has addressed OC, and with a guy who knows the past system.  The OL, sadly, that's not getting fixed until next year.   So it's gotta be better play-calling and better Cousins this year.   Next, with better OL play (and man, hopefully someone takes over who can build on what Sparano did, he was just great as an OL coach in 2017), well, then it's pretty hard not to point the finger at Cousins.  

 

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

Let's look at what's really happening. Earlier in the year the schedule was soft and Kirk was playing well. He's had some bad primetime games against good teams and everyone is now taking a dump on him. I'd like to see the guy with some decent pass protection and an OC who actually uses the talent in the best ways before I form any opinions on the guy. 

Agreed, but added the OC part.   Again, Cousins doesn't get off scot free, hardly.  He earns his share of the blame for sure.  But there are 2 other big players here.  This is one key step, shoring up the OL play is another.   

Crazy part is - I think MIN still gets into the playoffs with 2 W's in next 3 weeks.  And there's a REALLY good chance CHI will have nothing to play for Week 17.   PHI / CAR have to lose only 1 game (PHI gets @LAR, HOU, WAS & CAR gets NO x 2 and ATL - wow).   So it seems like MIN could still get another prime time game this year (I mean, a road playoff game kinda counts even if it's say 430 PM game lol).

[Pugger]

1 hour ago, Uncle Buck said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's a bum.  Both of our teams have seen plenty of bums at the QB position over the years, and Cousins is a better than just about all of them.  You could make a case that he is overpaid, but I don't think I'd even agree with that.  We paid what the market dictated.  He had a bad game last night, but I wouldn't say he is a bad QB.

Good news regarding the DeFilippo firing is that now he is available to talk to the Packers. 

No thanks.  

There is a reason why Washington wasn't ready to give Cousins the contract the Vikes did.  He's a good QB but not elite IMO.

[IotaNet]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

A 1.1 pick is a lot to spend for what LAR saw on SNF.  So, we should draw conclusions off that, right? 

I totally agree that Cousins has to prove he's worth it.  But that's not the argument you made - you tried to argue that the better idea was to keep Case Keenum, a 7-year journeyman who now is playing against a much easier schedule, on a much better OL, and who has literally played as a bottom 5 QB.  And we're stuck with him for 2 full years.    It's an awful premise.   If you see how crazy a take that is, then sure, let's have the will-Cousins-live-up-to-the-deal Q discussion.   

But again there, let's try to look at the whole body of work and place the blame where it belongs - some of it belongs on Cousins for sure.  The OL's play takes a bunch, and then the rest belongs squarely on the OC.   MIN has addressed OC, and with a guy who knows the past system.  The OL, sadly, that's not getting fixed until next year.   So it's gotta be better play-calling and better Cousins this year.   Next, with better OL play (and man, hopefully someone takes over who can build on what Sparano did, he was just great as an OL coach in 2017), well, then it's pretty hard not to point the finger at Cousins.  

 

You are right, Sir. I turn over my king.

<exits thread still shaking head at $84M guaranteed>