boswell

[warfelg]

6 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I just find if funny that you use the logic that if Tomlin isnt winning without Ben, that it supposedly exposes him.   Okay....let us know all these coaches who are maintaining high levels of success WITHOUT a franchise QB.     This team has had more consistent success during Tomlin's tenure than every other team other than New England....even teams like Green Bay and New Orleans who have notably better QBs than Ben.

And just kinda to expand on this, since I did last year to a great extent, but Tomlin and the Steelers are 2 games over .500 when the backup QB starts.  Again other then Belichick, how many coaches sport a record like that?

[43M]

5 minutes ago, warfelg said:

And just kinda to expand on this, since I did last year to a great extent, but Tomlin and the Steelers are 2 games over .500 when the backup QB starts.  Again other then Belichick, how many coaches sport a record like that?

Yeah, and off the top of my head, most of the losses with backups were very winnable games.   I know we very nearly beat the Ravens with both Byron Leftwich and Dennis Dixon.    We went 3-1 back in 2010 when Ben was suspended 4 games.      Back in 2015, we went 2-2 with the lethal QB combo of Michael Vick (who couldnt even hit Brown on simple 5 yard out routes) and Landry Jones (who...is Landry Jones).   And both games we lost with them that year were very winnable and lost at the end.

Bottom line...Tomlin KNOWS how to get this team ready to play and overcome adversity, he is just very inconsistent on a typical week to week basis.   Is that grounds for firing?    Maybe....but he isnt this completely helpless coach that some make him out to be.

 

[warfelg]

29 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Yeah, and off the top of my head, most of the losses with backups were very winnable games.   I know we very nearly beat the Ravens with both Byron Leftwich and Dennis Dixon.    We went 3-1 back in 2010 when Ben was suspended 4 games.      Back in 2015, we went 2-2 with the lethal QB combo of Michael Vick (who couldnt even hit Brown on simple 5 yard out routes) and Landry Jones (who...is Landry Jones).   And both games we lost with them that year were very winnable and lost at the end.

Bottom line...Tomlin KNOWS how to get this team ready to play and overcome adversity, he is just very inconsistent on a typical week to week basis.   Is that grounds for firing?    Maybe....but he isnt this completely helpless coach that some make him out to be.

 

Yup.  I think he knows how to get his guys up for a game wen a backup is in.

Like I said, I have my frustrations with him: Clock Management, taking games for granted, saying stupid crap.

But to me there are things people say he should be fired for that is complete BS to me:

Not winning more Super Bowls. Like the post you responded to earlier, I don't believe we were ever a top 2 talent team in the last 8 years and only 1 time IMO did we loose to a less talented team.  On the flip side we have beat a more talented team a few times in the playoffs.  Add on top of that the GOAT QB and Top 3 coach (IMO he's behind Lombardi and Noll) are in an active dynasty while Tomlin is coaching.

The 'coach speak' in press conferences. I mean, what do you want?  Guys like Rex Ryan who's a constant sound clip every time he's at the podium?  Usually those NFL HC's that are constantly calling out players, constant sound clips, and the story of the team are the coaches that massively under achieve and the ones that are looking for a job.

Tied to that, 'throwing players under the bus'.  What the hell does that accomplish?  What would Tomlin prove by throwing a player under the bus?  I find this one hilarious because we crap on Ben when 'throws someone under the bus' but we crap on Tomlin for not doing it.  People need to pick one and stick with it.

Those three are the three that people bring up a lot with Tomlin that really tick me off.  Like those are invented reasons.  Especially the first one.  I'm going to give you the complete list of active HC's with multiple Super Bowl rings:

Bill Belichick

That's it.  Ok so let's add active head coaches that have been to multiple Super Bowls:

Bill Belichick, Mike Tomlin, Pete Carroll, Sean Payton

I think it's time for some of these fans to acknowledge the high peak that they are asking for Mike Tomlin to top.  He's one of only 4 active HC's with multiple appearances.  Consider other long term coaches like Marvin Lewis, Jason Garrett, Andy Reid have been to 1 combined Super Bowl.  1.  That's it.  Think about how many fans would likely drop everything to sign Andy Reid to coach, and he's been to 1 SB, never won, has the same clock management issues, defensive issues, and constantly folds in the playoffs.

[43M]

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Not winning more Super Bowls. Like the post you responded to earlier, I don't believe we were ever a top 2 talent team in the last 8 years and only 1 time IMO did we loose to a less talented team.  On the flip side we have beat a more talented team a few times in the playoffs.  Add on top of that the GOAT QB and Top 3 coach (IMO he's behind Lombardi and Noll) are in an active dynasty while Tomlin is coaching.

Beyond that, as Ive said, the Pats are the only ones who have won SBs on a regular basis.    I always hear Steeler fans act like there is no reason we shouldnt have more SB wins with Ben as QB.   Aaron Rodgers only has his one against us....after the beat us, people were predicting Rodgers and that Packers team would win at least 3 more.....that Packers team fell apart pretty fast and Aaron Rodgers (who is objectively much better than Ben) hasnt been enough to carry that team to consistent success.   The Seahawks won and everyone figured that between Russell Wilson and that defense, they would be winning numerous SBs.     They won one (probably should have won another), but fell apart soon after.

Even with Tomlin's flaws, he deserves credit for HELPING to keep this team competitive year after year as well as any coach not named Bill Belichick.

I recognize and admit there are ways Tomlin has held this team back....but I also recognize that most coaches not named Belichick are extremely flawed and have done things to hold their teams back in ways.....from Pete Carroll, to Andy Reid, to Sean Peyton....and so on and so forth....

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

The 'coach speak' in press conferences. I mean, what do you want?  Guys like Rex Ryan who's a constant sound clip every time he's at the podium?  Usually those NFL HC's that are constantly calling out players, constant sound clips, and the story of the team are the coaches that massively under achieve and the ones that are looking for a job.

Nothing annoys me more than fans acting like they know what a coach is all about based on their press conferences and the limited views they get of them on the sidelines.   

If its all the same, Ill trust the players and the results more.    They know more than any of us.    The results arent always flattering, but it could be much much worse.

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Tied to that, 'throwing players under the bus'.  What the hell does that accomplish?  What would Tomlin prove by throwing a player under the bus?  I find this one hilarious because we crap on Ben when 'throws someone under the bus' but we crap on Tomlin for not doing it.  People need to pick one and stick with it.

Haha....and if he did that, the same people bashing him for not doing it would bash him FOR doing it.

Like I said, the haters pick and choose what to hate him for.

2 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Those three are the three that people bring up a lot with Tomlin that really tick me off.  Like those are invented reasons.  Especially the first one.  I'm going to give you the complete list of active HC's with multiple Super Bowl rings:

Bill Belichick

That's it.  Ok so let's add active head coaches that have been to multiple Super Bowls:

Bill Belichick, Mike Tomlin, Pete Carroll, Sean Payton

I think it's time for some of these fans to acknowledge the high peak that they are asking for Mike Tomlin to top.  He's one of only 4 active HC's with multiple appearances.  Consider other long term coaches like Marvin Lewis, Jason Garrett, Andy Reid have been to 1 combined Super Bowl.  1.  That's it.  Think about how many fans would likely drop everything to sign Andy Reid to coach, and he's been to 1 SB, never won, has the same clock management issues, defensive issues, and constantly folds in the playoffs.

Sean Payton has only been to one SB, but other than that, we are clearly on the same page with all of this.

[warfelg]

They've brought in Shawn Suisham to work with Chris Boswell.

[muncher]

no talent?

yet after every draft the past decade, fans of message boards give us all a's a and couple b's. i dont see many give c's and d's. so if we have the second best coach(according to some) and keep adding all a's and some b's drafts to our stacked team of great drafts, how can we not be talented?

[August4th]

 

[muncher]

2014 balitmore was inferior

2015 cincy was slightly better but needed cincy to give us 30 yards in penalties to pull our a win....denver was much worse

2016 miami was worse. kc even , NE better

2017 jax was worse

not seeing more quality wins than bad losses here.

[skywlker32]

30 minutes ago, muncher said:

no talent?

yet after every draft the past decade, fans of message boards give us all a's a and couple b's. i dont see many give c's and d's. so if we have the second best coach(according to some) and keep adding all a's and some b's drafts to our stacked team of great drafts, how can we not be talented?

Are you REALLY trying to base the talent of the team on how people on a message board view the picks immediately after the draft? And for the record, MANY were critical of this last year's draft as well as 2016 in particular. Players like Conner got poor draft grades by many immediately after the draft. Players like Golson were graded out very favorably. And yes, we do have talent on offense and I don't think many would argue against that, but we are severely lacking in talent on defense.

If you REALLY think that Tomlin has to go, who do you replace him with? Who are you bringing in that will take this team to the next level? Go ahead and show us how much smarter you are than everyone when the guys that you would replace Tomlin with are failures as a HC or never measure up.

[warfelg]

50 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

Are you REALLY trying to base the talent of the team on how people on a message board view the picks immediately after the draft? And for the record, MANY were critical of this last year's draft as well as 2016 in particular. Players like Conner got poor draft grades by many immediately after the draft. Players like Golson were graded out very favorably. And yes, we do have talent on offense and I don't think many would argue against that, but we are severely lacking in talent on defense.

If you REALLY think that Tomlin has to go, who do you replace him with? Who are you bringing in that will take this team to the next level? Go ahead and show us how much smarter you are than everyone when the guys that you would replace Tomlin with are failures as a HC or never measure up.

To add to this:

How often do we just try to talk about reshuffling the defense over and over, but the conclusion is always the same: 

bad CBs

LBs that can’t cover

Safeties that are traffic cones

No pass rush

Arguably the only two things you can fix without high round picks is LB and one safety. Want to say some personnel stuff is on Tomlin, fine. But ultimately Colbert has the final say, as does any GM. But any GM making picks without the coaches input is captaining the Titanic. 

I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest things need to be shaken up and changed. I do think it’s crazy to suggest only Tomlin is the issue and he must go. You don’t have the record he has by accident. 

[VigilantZombie]

7 hours ago, muncher said:

no talent?

yet after every draft the past decade, fans of message boards give us all a's a and couple b's. i dont see many give c's and d's. so if we have the second best coach(according to some) and keep adding all a's and some b's drafts to our stacked team of great drafts, how can we not be talented?

First of all in many ways when you grade a draft class you can only do so based on their production in college and what their potential is. If you look at a draft class and it happens to be full of guys who were very productive in college you cannot fault someone for grading that teams draft class very highly but as we've seen with guys like Limas sweed in Curtis Brown Martavis Bryant and many others not every pic works out.

Having said that many people including myself we're not pleased with last year's first-round pick many were also skeptical of Bud Dupree Jarvis Jones and even Ryan Shazier who actually ended up working out. Many were also skeptical of Artie Burns when he was drafted. So you sit here and talk about no talent and how we aren't giving the Steelers a bad grade but I completely disagree. I also feel very strongly that when James Conner was drafted I and a few others actually like the potential of the pick. I will tell you this okay you can tell on this form who watches a lot of college football and who doesn't end I will admit over the last couple of Seasons I haven't watched nearly as much college football as I used to because of my new job but I think that many of us can at least agree that we are not always right about draft picks. Having said that I do believe that the more knowledgeable guys on this forum or more right then they are wrong more often than not about draft classes when they evaluate them.

The real problem this organization is it they couldn't Scout a quality defensive back if their life depended on it. It has been too many examples of that. I do not give them much credit for Troy Polamalu there are not very often guys like Troy Polamalu who come along but Ed Reed was another one and he and Troy Polamalu were can't miss players.

Is not very often you can say that about somebody. Cortez Allen Antwon Blake Curtis Brown senquez Golson Artie Burns Sean Davis shamarko Thomas probably Marcus Allen but it's a little early to make judgment on that Ross Cockrell who did have a little bit of talent but not great and even though he was good in his return you've got to add William gay in the lift does really go on. This is just over the last five or six years it's kind of pathetic. There are at least eight draft busts on our roster that have had playing time in the last three losses.

The reality is three of those guys are starters on defense and that's not even including Bud Dupree who I do consider a draft bust even though he is playing probably his best season yet. At the beginning of the season if you include special teams and Justin Hunter as a wide receiver 6 draft busts were starters on our roster. The people that I am listing as bust are as follows:

Jon Bostic

Sean Davis

Coty Sensabaugh

Justin Hunter

Darrius Heyward-Bey

Bud Dupree - I am aware that he has improved but he is still a bust.

Artie Burns

Stevan Ridley

Joshua Dobbs - in my opinion he proved this past week that he is not a capable backup.

[43M]

8 hours ago, muncher said:

no talent?

yet after every draft the past decade, fans of message boards give us all a's a and couple b's. i dont see many give c's and d's. so if we have the second best coach(according to some) and keep adding all a's and some b's drafts to our stacked team of great drafts, how can we not be talented?

First off, grading the draft right after the draft is 100% irrelevant.    Its a crapshoot, and just people grading based on how they believe the drafted players will turn out.    Its irrelevant to how they ACTUALLY turn out.    

Secondly, ANYONE can grade drafts, even people who dont have the slightest clue how to evaluate players.    Also, alot of homers will give the draft A's and B's no matter what.

Third, if you looked around THIS site, which probably has many more OBJECTIVE Steeler fans than the numerous Steeler forums around the web, you'd see alot of C's and D's.   Again, they are irrelevant in the long run....but not many on here just give the drafts A's and B'.

In reality, alot of the drafts we've had have been extremely mediocre.    And more than that, the teams has failed in certain areas, most notably in regards to the pass defense.   We have utterly failed at replacing guys like Harrison, Polamalu and even Ike Taylor (even though Ike was never much better than average).

Im not saying Tomlin is the 2nd best coach, nor am I saying he doesnt deserve blame for these failures, but its pretty clear you arent capable of being objective when discussing Tomlin.    You'd think he was Hue f'ing Jackson the way some of you talk about him.

[muncher]

20 hours ago, skywlker32 said:

Are you REALLY trying to base the talent of the team on how people on a message board view the picks immediately after the draft? And for the record, MANY were critical of this last year's draft as well as 2016 in particular. Players like Conner got poor draft grades by many immediately after the draft. Players like Golson were graded out very favorably. And yes, we do have talent on offense and I don't think many would argue against that, but we are severely lacking in talent on defense.

If you REALLY think that Tomlin has to go, who do you replace him with? Who are you bringing in that will take this team to the next level? Go ahead and show us how much smarter you are than everyone when the guys that you would replace Tomlin with are failures as a HC or never measure up.

lol... the old 'who would be better argument'. one of the stupidest comments when talking about getting a new coach

show me how smart you are and say you knew cowher would be great. go ahead and tell me you knew tomlin would be great

you never heard of those guys before we hired them. 

im not scared of the organization finding the next HC, i have confidence they will do a good job. will they be as successful in the regular season as tomlin? maybe not. i am willing to bet they wont be worse then him in the post season

thew same people that are defending tomlin for not having talent are the same ones that gibe the steelers all a's and b's. you cant have it both ways

you also cant just blame colbert for no talent because tomlin says they all have equal input. and actually, if you pay attention, these project, athletes picks are all tomlin and no colbert

[skywlker32]

18 minutes ago, muncher said:

lol... the old 'who would be better argument'. one of the stupidest comments when talking about getting a new coach

show me how smart you are and say you knew cowher would be great. go ahead and tell me you knew tomlin would be great

you never heard of those guys before we hired them. 

im not scared of the organization finding the next HC, i have confidence they will do a good job. will they be as successful in the regular season as tomlin? maybe not. i am willing to bet they wont be worse then him in the post season

thew same people that are defending tomlin for not having talent are the same ones that gibe the steelers all a's and b's. you cant have it both ways

you also cant just blame colbert for no talent because tomlin says they all have equal input. and actually, if you pay attention, these project, athletes picks are all tomlin and no colbert

So you don't have an answer, but KNOW the Steelers can find better than Tomlin? That is different than accepting that Tomlin has performed as a top 10 coach at minimum and realizing that getting a BETTER coach than that is very difficult/lucky.  My point with bringing up who you replace him with is that you have guys every year that are viewed at the next best thing as a HC candidate, yet it rarely works out. You then go on to talk about how you don't know that the new coach would be as good in the regular season, but would likely be better in the playoffs is pure nonsense. Tomlin has a better playoff record than Andy Reid, yet no one is calling for his head and there just aren't many coaches that can be compared to Tomlin as far as how many playoff games he has had the team in. Tomlin is 8-7 in the playoffs. That is against the top 1/2-1/3 of the league each year. For comparison sake, Tomlin has a better playoff record than Don Shula, Tony Dungy, and Mike Ditka as far as coaches that were never really questioned.

You then generalize that the people giving the Steelers high draft grades are the same ones that are defending Tomlin. You are just talking out of your rear end now. Please back that up or get out of here with that nonsense. AND again, what do draft grades immediately after the draft have to do with the Steelers current talent level? How many supposed experts rated the Browns' drafts highly year after year.

 

[Lambert44]

Lets just keep Tomlin then. Sit here and watch the same CONSISTENT MISTAKES (hopefully I don't have to list them)

Go around 10 - 6 every year with a pretty talented squad ( I think we have been mentioned as Super Bowl contenders the last 3 years - maybe I am wrong)

And exit in the first round not even sniffing being a SB participant let alone winning it.

His time is done, we are not going to win another Super Bowl with him coaching this team.

Is it all his fault, no but it is time to move on!