This team needs a 2nd round WR/TE/RB or equivalent FA

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, Scoremore said:

Good point however FA's are available well after.  Also trades cuts etc.  

Except that really isn't the case.  The large majority of FAs have signed well before the draft.

[SSG]

46 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

It's not a Adams/Jennings/Nelson vs. nothing discussion that you're trying to make it out to be.  It's a Adams/Jennings/Nelson vs. Chris Jones (or insert whatever player you take in that round).  In terms of value, I'd rather invest heavily on another position than WR.

A pro bowl WR is every bit as valuable as a Pro bowl pass rusher.  You are much more likely to grab a great WR in the second round (we've drafted 3) than a great pass rusher.  We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't think WR talent matters.  Just because Aaron makes a lot of money doesn't mean he should be able to turn any warm body into a difference maker at WR.  This offense functions at it's best when it's got 3 capable WR and currently we don't have that which has lead to the offensive struggles.

Our offense has been terrible this year scoring 3 or fewer points in 5 different halves of football.  

[AlexGreen#20]

Just now, SSG said:

A pro bowl WR is every bit as valuable as a Pro bowl pass rusher.  You are much more likely to grab a great WR in the second round (we've drafted 3) than a great pass rusher.  We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't think WR talent matters.  Just because Aaron makes a lot of money doesn't mean he should be able to turn any warm body into a difference maker at WR.  This offense functions at it's best when it's got 3 capable WR and currently we don't have that which has lead to the offensive struggles.

Our offense has been terrible this year scoring 3 or fewer points in 5 different halves of football.  

All evidence to the contrary

[SSG]

11 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

All evidence to the contrary

We're top 5 in the NFL in sacks.  Meanwhile our offense has went long stretches this year looking like the worst in the NFL.  5 halves of football with 3 or fewer points.  7 halves of football where they couldn't score more than a touchdown.  That's horrid production at offense and garbage talent at WR has something to do with it.  

Edited December 14, 2018 by SSG

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, SSG said:

A pro bowl WR is every bit as valuable as a Pro bowl pass rusher.  You are much more likely to grab a great WR in the second round (we've drafted 3) than a great pass rusher.  We'll have to agree to disagree if you don't think WR talent matters.  Just because Aaron makes a lot of money doesn't mean he should be able to turn any warm body into a difference maker at WR.  This offense functions at it's best when it's got 3 capable WR and currently we don't have that which has lead to the offensive struggles.

Our offense has been terrible this year scoring 3 or fewer points in 5 different halves of football.  

That is legitimately laughable.  Who has a bigger impact, Julio Jones or Khalil Mack?  The notion that you think a Pro Bowl WR has the same impact that a Pro Bowl pass rusher does is a really, really bad take.  There's literally no evidence that WR talent translates to wins.  I mean, how many playoff games has Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. won?  In terms of pecking order, WR is pretty damn near the bottom.  At the end of the day, they're only as productive as the QB throwing to them.  That isn't the case with an elite pass rusher.

As for the success rate, that has more to go with certain positions drying up faster than others.  Over the last 3 years, we've seen an average 32 WRs drafted per year.  Over that same period, we've seen on average 20 DEs drafted.  And there's history that EDGE seem to go much higher than WRs do, so your quality ones are going off the board sooner.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, SSG said:

We're top 5 in the NFL in sacks.  Meanwhile our offense has went long stretches this year looking like the worst in the NFL.  5 halves of football with 3 or fewer points.  7 halves of football where they couldn't score more than a touchdown.  That's horrid production at offense and garbage talent at WR has something to do with it.  

Does Aaron Rodgers or our WRs have more to do with that?  It's pretty damn clear the offensive struggles lie more at the feet of Rodgers than they do our WRs.

[SSG]

Just now, CWood21 said:

Does Aaron Rodgers or our WRs have more to do with that?  It's pretty damn clear the offensive struggles lie more at the feet of Rodgers than they do our WRs.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I completely disagree with that assessment.  Rodgers hasn't played great but the idea that he's turned into a terrible QB who's losing us games is laughable.  He shouldn't need to play like a god on EVERY SINGLE snap.  Our WR play this year outside of Adams has been terrible.  The rookies have had questionable route running, bad hands and have been quick to quit on their QB during the scramble drill.  I have no idea what posters are watching when they are making these rookies out to be future stars.  

[SSG]

25 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That is legitimately laughable.  Who has a bigger impact, Julio Jones or Khalil Mack?  The notion that you think a Pro Bowl WR has the same impact that a Pro Bowl pass rusher does is a really, really bad take.  There's literally no evidence that WR talent translates to wins.  I mean, how many playoff games has Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. won?  In terms of pecking order, WR is pretty damn near the bottom.  At the end of the day, they're only as productive as the QB throwing to them.  That isn't the case with an elite pass rusher.

As for the success rate, that has more to go with certain positions drying up faster than others.  Over the last 3 years, we've seen an average 32 WRs drafted per year.  Over that same period, we've seen on average 20 DEs drafted.  And there's history that EDGE seem to go much higher than WRs do, so your quality ones are going off the board sooner.

What's laughable is that garbage example.  Can you objectively tell me that Chris Jones has been more important to Kansas City's success this year than Tyreek Hill..... Laughable right?  It's easy to laugh at when you pull up the most garbage example you can find, not so easy when the example is legit and the players are on the same team.  What about Joey Bosa or Melvin Ingram being more important this year than Keenan Allen?  Is Cameron Jordon more important to the Saints than Michael Thomas?  In 2016, was Vic Beasley more important to Atlanta's success than Julio Jones?  It's waste of time to target a WR on a horrible team and try to compare him to a pass rusher on a great one.  

 

WR talent matters.  Without it, we wouldn't have won the 2010 Super Bowl  Thankfully the answer wasn't a half dozen low end WR prospects hoping one of them turns into  starter.  

 

I never said Edge rusher wasn't important.  I  said that it's every bit as important as a great WR.  The chances of hitting a home run at WR in the second round is substantially higher than finding the same caliber pass rusher in the second.  

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by SSG

[CWood21]

19 minutes ago, SSG said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I completely disagree with that assessment.  Rodgers hasn't played great but the idea that he's turned into a terrible QB who's losing us games is laughable.  He shouldn't need to play like a god on EVERY SINGLE snap.  Our WR play this year outside of Adams has been terrible.  The rookies have had questionable route running, bad hands and have been quick to quit on their QB during the scramble drill.  I have no idea what posters are watching when they are making these rookies out to be future stars.  

There's nothing to disagree with.  We've seen Rodgers produce with average WRs, we've seen him produce with great WRs.  The only thing that has stayed the same: Aaron Rodgers.  Go look at AG's post of Rodgers from the Cardinals game, and tell me that the WR were the issue that game.  I'll save you some time, it wasn't.  That falls on Rodgers, and to a lesser extent McCarthy.  Would I like an elite WR?  Absolutely, but if we're talking about an elite WR and a premium position I'm taking a premium position.  And no, our WR hasn't been terrible nor does Rodgers have to play like a god on every snap.  That's an over-exaggeration on so many levels.

[CWood21]

11 minutes ago, SSG said:

What's laughable is that garbage example.  Can you objectively tell me that Chris Jones has been more important to Kansas City's success this year than Tyreek Hill..... Laughable right?  It's easy to laugh at when you pull up the most garbage example you can find, not so easy when the example is legit and the players are on the same team.  What about Joey Bosa or Melvin Ingram being more important this year than Keenan Allen?  Is Cameron Jordon more important to the Saints than Michael Thomas?  In 2016, was Vic Beasley more important to Atlanta's success than Julio Jones?  It's waste of time to target a WR on a horrible team and try to compare him to a pass rusher on a great one.  

 

WR talent matters.  Without it, we wouldn't have won the 2010 Super Bowl  Thankfully the answer wasn't a half dozen low end WR prospects hoping one of them turns into  starter.  

 

I never said Edge rusher wasn't important.  I  said that it's every bit as important as a great WR.  The chances of hitting a home run at WR in the second round is substantially higher than finding the same caliber pass rusher in the second.  

Why are the Kansas City Chiefs 1st in DVOA and 1st in PPG this year, but last year KC was 7th in DVOA and 6th in DVOA?  I'll give you a hint, his name is Patrick Mahomes.  Do you truly believe that Tyreek Hill is the reason why the Chiefs are such a great offense?  Absolutely not.  Tyreek Hill is only as good as the QB who gets him the ball.  Hence the reason why WRs really aren't all that valuable.  I'd take Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram over Keenan Allen pretty damn easily.  I'd take Cam Jordan over Michael Thomas.  Your WR is only as good as the QB getting them the ball.  If you're QB can't get them the ball, they're nothing more than a decoy.

Look at who the best WR on the past Super Bowl champions?  You have Nelson Agholor (Eagles), Julian Edelman (Patriots), Demaryius Thomas (Broncos), Julian Edelman (Patriots), Golden Tate (Seahawks), and Torrey Smith (Baltimore).  Ironically, none of those would be an elite talent at WR are there.

[cannondale]

The WR class this year isn't anything to write home about IMO. 

[SSG]

55 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

There's nothing to disagree with.  We've seen Rodgers produce with average WRs, we've seen him produce with great WRs.  The only thing that has stayed the same: Aaron Rodgers.  Go look at AG's post of Rodgers from the Cardinals game, and tell me that the WR were the issue that game.  I'll save you some time, it wasn't.  That falls on Rodgers, and to a lesser extent McCarthy.  Would I like an elite WR?  Absolutely, but if we're talking about an elite WR and a premium position I'm taking a premium position.  And no, our WR hasn't been terrible nor does Rodgers have to play like a god on every snap.  That's an over-exaggeration on so many levels.

When have we seen Aaron Rodgers produce with an average group of WRs?   Outside of 2015, when Jordy got hurt, he's had one of the more consistantly loaded WR cores since coming in the NFL.

There is obviously plenty to disagree with so I'm leaving it at that.  Aaron Rodgers didn't turn into a bad QB and the reason we're losing games.  Simple as that.  He didn't play great against Arizona but he got no help when the rookies seem to drop damn near every single ball that hit them in the hands.  It's not Rodger's job to both throw and catch.

[SSG]

52 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Why are the Kansas City Chiefs 1st in DVOA and 1st in PPG this year, but last year KC was 7th in DVOA and 6th in DVOA?  I'll give you a hint, his name is Patrick Mahomes.  Do you truly believe that Tyreek Hill is the reason why the Chiefs are such a great offense?  Absolutely not.  Tyreek Hill is only as good as the QB who gets him the ball.  Hence the reason why WRs really aren't all that valuable.  I'd take Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram over Keenan Allen pretty damn easily.  I'd take Cam Jordan over Michael Thomas.  Your WR is only as good as the QB getting them the ball.  If you're QB can't get them the ball, they're nothing more than a decoy.

Look at who the best WR on the past Super Bowl champions?  You have Nelson Agholor (Eagles), Julian Edelman (Patriots), Demaryius Thomas (Broncos), Julian Edelman (Patriots), Golden Tate (Seahawks), and Torrey Smith (Baltimore).  Ironically, none of those would be an elite talent at WR are there.

The fact that Patrick Mohones is playing great doesn't mean Tyreek Hill is any less important to that team's success.  Chris Jones is a great player on one of the NFL's worst defensive unit's.  A unit that has hurt KC more than helped IMO.  A great pass rusher matters less if the defense he plays on sucks.  Hill on the other hand has been the best WR in the NFL this year requiring 2 or 3 defenders on every single play because of his TD potential. 

Just because you'd take a player doesn't mean that they are any more important to those team's success.  Heck, Joey Bosa missed all but 5 games this year without the LAC missing a beat, I'm unsure how he could be more important his team this year than Keenan Allen, their leading WR.  

For the GREEN BAY PACKERS a quality WR is every bit as important as a quality pass rusher.  We're top 5 in the NFL in sacks this year with Kyler Fackrell being our leading pass rusher.  Meanwhile we've seen our offense score a TD or less in a half 7 times this year.  You aren't beating many teams when you can't score more than 7 points in a half. This team needs both a quality pass rusher and a quality WR.  The chances are landing a quality WR in the second round is substantially higher than landing a quality pass rusher.  In the last 10 years there have been twice as many pro bowl pass catchers drafted in the second round than pass rushers (both interior and exterior.  That doesn't include guys like Chris Jones and JuJu Smith Schuster who are likely to make their first pro bowls this year).

[AlexGreen#20]

5 minutes ago, SSG said:

The fact that Patrick Mohones is playing great doesn't mean Tyreek Hill is any less important to that team's success.  Chris Jones is a great player on one of the NFL's worst defensive unit's.  A unit that has hurt KC more than helped IMO.  A great pass rusher matters less if the defense he plays on sucks.  Hill on the other hand has been the best WR in the NFL this year requiring 2 or 3 defenders on every single play because of his TD potential. 

Just because you'd take a player doesn't mean that they are any more important to those team's success.  Heck, Joey Bosa missed all but 5 games this year without the LAC missing a beat, I'm unsure how he could be more important his team this year than Keenan Allen, their leading WR.  

For the GREEN BAY PACKERS a quality WR is every bit as important as a quality pass rusher.  We're top 5 in the NFL in sacks this year with Kyler Fackrell being our leading pass rusher.  Meanwhile we've seen our offense score a TD or less in a half 7 times this year.  You aren't beating many teams when you can't score more than 7 points in a half. This team needs both a quality pass rusher and a quality WR.  The chances are landing a quality WR in the second round is substantially higher than landing a quality pass rusher.  In the last 10 years there have been twice as many pro bowl pass catchers drafted in the second round than pass rushers (both interior and exterior.  That doesn't include guys like Chris Jones and JuJu Smith Schuster who are likely to make their first pro bowls this year).

We're Top 5 in sacks, while blitzing a **** ton.

If you can get it done with 4, you can protect Josh Jackson. 

[pacman5252]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

That is legitimately laughable.  Who has a bigger impact, Julio Jones or Khalil Mack?  The notion that you think a Pro Bowl WR has the same impact that a Pro Bowl pass rusher does is a really, really bad take.  There's literally no evidence that WR talent translates to wins.  I mean, how many playoff games has Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, AJ Green, etc. won?  In terms of pecking order, WR is pretty damn near the bottom.  At the end of the day, they're only as productive as the QB throwing to them.  That isn't the case with an elite pass rusher.

As for the success rate, that has more to go with certain positions drying up faster than others.  Over the last 3 years, we've seen an average 32 WRs drafted per year.  Over that same period, we've seen on average 20 DEs drafted.  And there's history that EDGE seem to go much higher than WRs do, so your quality ones are going off the board sooner.

Mack has been on bad teams too while Julio has been to a SB.