This team needs a 2nd round WR/TE/RB or equivalent FA

[Pugger]

17 hours ago, vegas492 said:

I'm cherrypicking your post and I apologize for it.  Just to make it easier to read.

Regarding MVS...I love the kid.  But I admit that he's the one (of the rookies) that I worry about most.  Mental part of it.  Kid has all the tools and then some.  And, it seems like he has a very good character.  I just worry that he will never really "get it" and be another Corey Bradford.  His ceiling is higher than the other rookies, but I think his floor is lower, too.

I wonder if he hit what they call the "rookie wall"?  

[Pugger]

17 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

If Rodgers was an average QB throwing deep balls this year, Adams would have 16 TDs so far. Adams has been a stud WITH an average QB.

I think you're overrating the frequency with which other WRs are making big things happen. Of the 100 or so starters in the league, probably half of them are just there eating snaps and catching balls when they're schemed open. 

Frankly I just think you and I see the kid's talent levels at WR way way way way differently. 

Yes, Adams was productive with freakin' Hundley last year.

[craig]

Not confident that any of the 3 rookies are going to become stars.  The two who play have gotten lots of opportunities, but don't seem to make a lot of plays, don't make a lot of catches, and don't seem to have a lot of moves or shiftiness.  MVS has outstanding straight-line speed, but I'm not sure he's really shown much of the shake-and-bake quickness and shiftiness, or the capacity to set up and freeze a defender before accelerating one way or another.  ESB obviously has some really interesting hands that I love; but he's not fast enough to run away from NFL secondary guys, and he doesn't seem to have much shiftiness either.  Maybe a guy who can make some catches if:  a) a defense breaks down  b) a play is called to scheme him open, or c) the QB makes him a very accurate pass that takes advantage of his length and hands, even when he isn't super open.  Obviously at present other than during the first handfuls of pre-planned schemed plays, Rodgers isn't looking for him as a primary target; so even when he does sometimes get some clearance temporarily, I don't think Rodgers often utilizes those temporary moments of ESB being somewhat open.   

To me, I see an offense that needs some help.  This is totally not an offense that can routinely and consistently expect to be able to convert passes and make first downs.   I think the defense shows hints of being decent if healthy, and if they can somehow conjure up some pass rush.  But I'd like to see an offense that is strong enough and consistent enough that it can hold onto the ball and convert first downs and keep the offense on the field; and that can outscore an opponent.  

Sunday was only the 3rd time all season the Packers have gotten to 30 points in a game, and of course that was enabled by the pick-6, the offense again didn't score 30 points, and the passing game didn't hit 200 yards.  

I guess I'd like to see a passing game that is outstanding enough to help routinely win games in which the defense allows 20-25 points, and to win games without depending on the defense creating turnovers.  And an offense that when it's a close game in the fourth quarter, they can drive down and score to win if needed; or can convert 1st downs and keep the ball when trying to protect a close-game lead.   Both eat clock, keep opponent offense off the field, and pad leads.  

Maybe a new coach and another offseason is going to turn MVS and ESB and Moore into guys who can enable a great passing game.  But I'd really like to see a good, gifted, skillful, shifty receiver added to the pool.  

[Pugger]

17 hours ago, skibrett15 said:

I actually like their talents fine.  I don't see them as players who anyone ever would line up to trade a 2nd or 3rd rounder for, but  ESB is my guy, I think he's a solid #3 going forward.  I ultimately don't think Rodgers will ever get on board with Moore or MVS and trust them like he did with Cobb, but it's more likely that I'm wrong about 1 or 2 specific player evaluations after 1 rookie year.  I see them all as dice rolls still.

 

That ball Rodgers threw to Cobb on the TD... never goes up to anyone but Cobb or Adams. That ball he threw to Adams on the TD (which was a meh throw!) only goes up to Adams.

 

I think Rodgers can be just as mediocre as this year with a better #2 option and the offense could be hugely better.  I think he could also improve his own play, and I think the scheme can help as well.

 

Scheme plus Rodgers' execution define the maximum potential of the offense.  That can CLEARLY improve. 

Receiving talent/receiving execution/connection of receiver to rodgers, and run game threat define what percentage of that potential is realized.

We can debate which of the 3 factors affected the offense the most, and that's a good conversation to have.  But I don't think that the current receiving/offensive weapon crop realized enough of THIS offense's potential. 

And that factor hasn't really been addressed because while the individual players exceeded expectations, there was simply a huge talent suck on this team which started 3 years ago with Jordy's decline.  Then it fed into last year and was obfuscated by the Rodgers injury, and finally it crept into this year with Graham/kids/allison/cobb not living up to what the offense's potential was.. EVEN WITH a diminished performance from Rodgers/McCarthy.

 

When Cobb, Jordy and Adams were rookies and as green as our young guys.  How many around here were bemoaning Adams' play earlier in his career and now look at him.

[Leader]

Just now, Pugger said:

When Cobb, Jordy and Adams were rookies and as green as our young guys.  How many around here were bemoaning Adams' play earlier in his career and now look at him.

Not me

 

[Pugger]

5 minutes ago, Leader said:

Not me

 

I wasn't either.  

[Leader]

29 minutes ago, Pugger said:

Rodgers isn't going to throw them the damn ball if the aren't where they are supposed to be.

Yeah well, thats a fairly subjective matter isnt it? Where exactly is that exact spot (?) and what difference does it make when AR's passes are off center - to the left, right, high and low?

[Mr. Fussnputz]

4 hours ago, OneTwoSixFive said:

Let us start by looking at the talent. It's probably more than 50/50 that Cobb is gone, so a negative there. Adams is a stud, a big plus. MVS is pretty green but catches well, has great height and runs like the wind. ESB is a slightly lesser version of MVS (at present). Kumerow and Allison are reliable guys who can both fill a role at the NFL level and who knows if Moore can develop next year ? Working on the @Outpost31 idea of taking care not to waste draft picks, you wait to see what MVS and ESB bring in their second year before committing to a high (2nd round) draft pick. I don't think going into 2019 with these players is a disaster. I DO think that after the 2019 season we will have a much better idea of the capabilities of the three rookies, and a better sense of whether a high pick needs to be spent at WR for a no.2 receiver.

Looking at the draft, any round 2 draft pick very probably will not contribute much in his rookie year (Jordy and Davante took until their third years to break out), so the 2019 season is unlikely to look much better with a high-end WR. Now if instead you are talking acquiring a solid veteran receiver, I wouldn't disagree, provided we no longer have Cobb. His replacement could be someone like (for example) the Jets Jermaine Kearse (age 28, cost maybe $6-7m) who can play plenty of dig, curl and slant routes and would probably be happiest in the slot. (see https://www.ganggreennation.com/2018/7/19/17590836/how-complete-of-a-receiver-is-jermaine-kearse-breaking-down-kearses-numbers-by-route-type-ny-jets)

Although it never happens as I predict, most years I have my 'shopping list' of positions that need addressing. This year, in common with several other posters, I have Edge, S, OT as three of the high picks, followed by TE, G, RB.

Great post. I wouldn't use a 2019 draft choice on a WR until more is known about how the youngsters will turn out. And because it takes a year or two for rookies to blossom. But if Cobb leaves (and I would let him), Kearse would be a great signing. That way the youngsters would have another year to develop and Kearse would be a good number two complementing Adams. I would also bring back Allison. That way there are three vets starting. Keep the best three out of 4 youngsters (MVS, EQ, Kumerow, and Moore). Or even all 4. That receiving group would look pretty good to me in 2019. 

[Pugger]

6 minutes ago, Leader said:

Yeah well, thats a fairly subjective matter isnt it? Where exactly is that exact spot (?) and what difference does it make when AR's passes are off center - to the left, right, high and low?

Its hard to say when we aren't sure what play was called.  Also the young guys are still learning how to come back to AR when the play breaks down or the protection fails and Aaron has to scramble out of there.  I think these young WRs will be better in 2019 and going forward.  

[MacReady]

Solve this entire problem by signing Adam Humphries to half of what the big name free agent receivers will get because you know he's going to New England and having 130 receptions next year if we don't sign him.

This gives us what we wanted out of Cobb the past three-four years. 

Draft Tom Sweeney in the third round. 

If Rodgers can't get it done with Bakhtiari, Taylor, Linsley, ____, Bulaga, Adams, Graham, Jones, Humphries, MVS/ESB, Sweeney and a top ten scoring defense after it adds an actual pass rusher and an actual safety, bench him. 

[Mr. Fussnputz]

2 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Solve this entire problem by signing Adam Humphries to half of what the big name free agent receivers will get because you know he's going to New England and having 130 receptions next year if we don't sign him.

This gives us what we wanted out of Cobb the past three-four years. 

Draft Tom Sweeney in the third round. 

If Rodgers can't get it done with Bakhtiari, Taylor, Linsley, ____, Bulaga, Adams, Graham, Jones, Humphries, MVS/ESB, Sweeney and a top ten scoring defense after it adds an actual pass rusher and an actual safety, bench him. 

Ah, that blank spot you have worries me the most. How do you want to fill it?

[Leader]

Just now, Pugger said:

Its hard to say when we aren't sure what play was called.  Also the young guys are still learning how to come back to AR when the play breaks down or the protection fails and Aaron has to scramble out of there.  I think these young WRs will be better in 2019 and going forward.  

I've had nothing but hope and anticipation for the rookie WRs since they were selected.
I've liked a good portion of what I've seen from them this year. Its a bit of a mixed bag - for one reason because of ARs uneven play.
I'm not dissing them. I've always been a proponent of "it takes time" for player development.

But - to copy / past a portion of a the comment just above yours......

I wouldn't use a 2019 draft choice on a WR until more is known about how the youngsters will turn out. And because it takes a year or two for rookies to blossom. But if Cobb leaves (and I would let him), Kearse would be a great signing. That way the youngsters would have another year to develop and Kearse would be a good number two complementing Adams. I would also bring back Allison.

Thing is - we wont know more about how the youngsters will turn out - till next year plays out - so then we're talking 2020 draft.
So - I guess if we're gonna pass up a playmaker in this years draft, we better hope they dont have "flatline" development (or get hurt) in 2019 eh? Or I guess we'd better snag that elusive FA WR.
 

[ThatJerkDave]

20 hours ago, packfanfb said:

Drafting TE is fine. No immediate need there if Graham doesn't go anywhere. On the other hand I think anyone who thinks we are okay at WR with Adams, MVS, ESB, Allison, Moore is straight bat-**** crazy. 

I'd be targeting the top tier of WRs in free agency, just like we targeted Robinson last year. That's a fairly big need on this team. 

Use FA to get a WR, S (or 2) and maybe a G. 

Use draft to target EDGE and smaller needs at other positions. No need to draft another WR, we have too many young guys as it is. 

Call me crazy then.  I like that group.  

[Mr. Fussnputz]

6 minutes ago, Leader said:

I've had nothing but hope and anticipation for the rookie WRs since they were selected.
I've liked a good portion of what I've seen from them this year. Its a bit of a mixed bag - for one reason because of ARs uneven play.
I'm not dissing them. I've always been a proponent of "it takes time" for player development.

But - to copy / past a portion of a the comment just above yours......

I wouldn't use a 2019 draft choice on a WR until more is known about how the youngsters will turn out. And because it takes a year or two for rookies to blossom. But if Cobb leaves (and I would let him), Kearse would be a great signing. That way the youngsters would have another year to develop and Kearse would be a good number two complementing Adams. I would also bring back Allison.

Thing is - we wont know more about how the youngsters will turn out - till next year plays out - so then we're talking 2020 draft.
So - I guess if we're gonna pass up a playmaker in this years draft, we better hope they dont have "flatline" development (or get hurt) in 2019 eh? Or I guess we'd better snag that elusive FA WR.
 

Yup. Snag that elusive FA WR. Doesn't have to be a superstar, just Kearse level good. I've been advocating for that since OTAs. The only thing that has changed in my thinking is that Cobb may be done, and Allison is improved, but we still need another vet WR. That hasn't changed. Going into 2019 with Adams, Allison, and ?Kearse?, and the three or four youngsters seems fine. We have other needs to spend draft picks on. LBs, O-line, D-line, S, another TE is take over when Graham retires, maybe even a K. 

[vegas492]

43 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Solve this entire problem by signing Adam Humphries to half of what the big name free agent receivers will get because you know he's going to New England and having 130 receptions next year if we don't sign him.

This gives us what we wanted out of Cobb the past three-four years. 

Draft Tom Sweeney in the third round. 

If Rodgers can't get it done with Bakhtiari, Taylor, Linsley, ____, Bulaga, Adams, Graham, Jones, Humphries, MVS/ESB, Sweeney and a top ten scoring defense after it adds an actual pass rusher and an actual safety, bench him. 

You've mentioned him before...enough that I actually remembered him and check his stats out every now and then.  Agree that he could be a nice signing and maybe even exceed a signed contract.  Humphries wise.  Nice find.