showtime Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 So just because someone is a two-way player that means they're better than Kyrie Irving? There's no way I would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 hour ago, showtime said: This list is clearly you reaching. How is Damian Lillard clearly a better player than Kyrie Irving? Also, in what world is Gordon Hayward a better player than Kyrie Irving? I would take Kyrie Irving over Paul George and Jimmy Butler. Sure, you could say Russell Westbrook is a better player, but today I'm taking Kyrie Irving over him. I think John Wall and Irving are really close - I can accept Wall being listed over Irving more than I can accept Westbrook. I didn't say Lillard was clearly better than Irving...They are incredibly similar players. One happens to play with the best player in the world, so his team makes it further in the playoffs. I didn't say Hayward was clearly better than Irving...Hayward has put up a higher VORP, BPM, WS and WS/48, RPM, and TS% over each of the last 2 seasons. If you don't pick him then fine, Irving certainly has his benefits over Hayward (bucket getting, creativity, other scoring and ball-handling things), but Hayward has plenty of advantages as well. The top 11 I listed are, without a doubt, better than Kyrie Irving. The rest were arguable. The fact that you would take Irving over Butler and George because of a couple great games against Golden State is ridiculous to me. Their impact in the win/loss column is much clearer to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: I didn't say Lillard was clearly better than Irving...They are incredibly similar players. One happens to play with the best player in the world, so his team makes it further in the playoffs. I didn't say Hayward was clearly better than Irving...Hayward has put up a higher VORP, BPM, WS and WS/48, RPM, and TS% over each of the last 2 seasons. If you don't pick him then fine, Irving certainly has his benefits over Hayward (bucket getting, creativity, other scoring and ball-handling things), but Hayward has plenty of advantages as well. The top 11 I listed are, without a doubt, better than Kyrie Irving. The rest were arguable. The fact that you would take Irving over Butler and George because of a couple great games against Golden State is ridiculous to me. Their impact in the win/loss column is much clearer to me. My mistake, I thought when you listed Damian Lillard and Gordon Hayward you were saying they were clearly better. As far as Paul George is concerned, I would take Kyrie Irving over him because Irving is the better player. I cannot wait for this season to start now that Kyrie Irving is out of LeBron's shadow. I am not trying to say that nobody gives Irving credit or that people don't respect his game, because that isn't entirely true - however, I feel Irving is getting undermined here a bit. Paul George is now the second best player on the team he plays on and that is a much better role for him. Kyrie Irving is now the best player on the team he plays on and this season he will prove that he belongs in that role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, showtime said: So just because someone is a two-way player that means they're better than Kyrie Irving? There's no way I would take Paul George over Kyrie Irving. Why? Because he's not a better offensive player overall, he can't defend (George is great at it) and he doesn't make anyone better (George does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Just now, Bullet Club said: Why? Because he's not a better offensive player overall, he can't defend (George is great at it) and he doesn't make anyone better (George does). Paul George is certainly a much better defensive player, there is no question about that and Kyrie Irving is clearly the better offensive player. How does Paul George make players around him better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Just now, showtime said: Paul George is certainly a much better defensive player, there is no question about that and Kyrie Irving is clearly the better offensive player. How does Paul George make players around him better? To put it simply his team was much better with him on the court than off. That hasn't been the case with Kyrie unless he has LeBron next to him. Why is Kyrie clearly the better offensive player? What does he do to make the offense better? Volume score at rate worse than Isiah Thomas with more help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I'd take Paul George over Kyrie but how in gods name does Paul George make players around him better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 minute ago, MookieMonster said: I'd take Paul George over Kyrie but how in gods name does Paul George make players around him better? Even if it's minimal it's drastically better than anything Irving does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Regardless, I don't think the Celtics traded for what Kyrie is right now. He's only 25 years old and has never had great coaching. He fits the youth movement Boston is going for, this Celtics team was ALWAYS a bridge team. A bridge team for 2019 and on where the Warriors are hopefully disbanded to some extent and beatable in a 7 game series. Its pretty clear Boston is hoping that Stevens can coach up Kyrie a bit and that this team can continue to grow and improve and be very competitive in the future. Our starting lineup right now is PG - Kyrie Irving - 25 years old SG - Jaylen Brown - 20 years old SF - Gordon Hayward - 27 years old PF - Marcus Morris - 27 years old or Jayson Tatum - 19 years old C - Al Horford - 31 years old This team is young and isn't expected to win an NBA Championship this year. This is also a win because it saves us from paying IT 25M a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I highly doubt Kyrie shows an noticeable improvement going forward. He's essentially the same player he was when he was drafted. He's just more experienced. Not having to pay Isiah going forward is obviously a win and the youth movement looks good but it would probably look better with that Brooklyn pick and just letting IT walk after the season or dealing him for more assets. I don't think people realize how absolutely selfish and impact-less Kyrie is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Kyrie was on a legitimate crap team, and then basically was just a key in Lebrons system. Which is essentially let Lebron drive and penetrate and kick out or score. I'm interested to see what he does when he can just play within an actual offensive system. Could he just be a younger version of IT? Sure. I'm ok with taking that risk though, Kyrie is also a MUCH more attractive player to outside players. Wouldn't be surprised if we utilized the LA/SAC pick to obtain another player at some point this season or next off-season with Kyrie/Hayward/Horford helping to pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDez Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 36 minutes ago, MookieMonster said: Regardless, I don't think the Celtics traded for what Kyrie is right now. He's only 25 years old and has never had great coaching. He fits the youth movement Boston is going for, this Celtics team was ALWAYS a bridge team. A bridge team for 2019 and on where the Warriors are hopefully disbanded to some extent and beatable in a 7 game series. Its pretty clear Boston is hoping that Stevens can coach up Kyrie a bit and that this team can continue to grow and improve and be very competitive in the future. Our starting lineup right now is PG - Kyrie Irving - 25 years old SG - Jaylen Brown - 20 years old SF - Gordon Hayward - 27 years old PF - Marcus Morris - 27 years old or Jayson Tatum - 19 years old C - Al Horford - 31 years old This team is young and isn't expected to win an NBA Championship this year. This is also a win because it saves us from paying IT 25M a year. Boston is definitely better going forward I just can't fathom a rookie GM taking Ainge to school like that. I find it hard to believe the Cavs don't make that deal if they give up the Laker pick instead or at least protect the Brooklyn pick top-3. Boston could've had more ammo for an AD deal next summer if the Pels underachieve again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, MookieMonster said: Kyrie was on a legitimate crap team, and then basically was just a key in Lebrons system. Which is essentially let Lebron drive and penetrate and kick out or score. I'm interested to see what he does when he can just play within an actual offensive system. Could he just be a younger version of IT? Sure. I'm ok with taking that risk though, Kyrie is also a MUCH more attractive player to outside players. Wouldn't be surprised if we utilized the LA/SAC pick to obtain another player at some point this season or next off-season with Kyrie/Hayward/Horford helping to pitch. Those are fair points. The name value he brings is obviously a huge plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Oh man, and I thought the AD non-sense was only here in Boston. The Pelicans wont trade AD, nor should they. If this Cousins experiment doesn't work, they'll likely let him walk trade Jrue and try to build around AD with a totally new roster. As they should. Waiting on a guy like AD to become available would be a huge mistake. If the Cavs would've taken the LA pick, thats the pick Ainge would've moved...Simple as that. This was a fair deal value wise for both teams, one of the few trades that isn't heavily swayed one way or the other. I have zero idea how Ainge got "taken to school". If the Nets pick lands outside the top 2, this trade is a big win for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Brown Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 46 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: I highly doubt Kyrie shows an noticeable improvement going forward. He's essentially the same player he was when he was drafted. He's just more experienced. Not having to pay Isiah going forward is obviously a win and the youth movement looks good but it would probably look better with that Brooklyn pick and just letting IT walk after the season or dealing him for more assets. I don't think people realize how absolutely selfish and impact-less Kyrie is. Oh I realize it. You're preaching to the choir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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