Raiders Defense

[Humble_Beast]

3 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I wasn't giving my opinion, was giving their actual ratings from last year.

o.... I don't follow video games

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

He’s definitely a slow CB.  My point is he’s so slow there’s no need to exaggerate it by saying 4.8.  
but worley has had longer moments of success.  When people advocate for him to come back it’s only as a placeholder until a rookie is able to start and then use him in a role of covering TEs and larger WRs, which he is decent at.

There's a reason we didn't bring him back, he doesn't have the speed to play in our scheme. Worley is slow, misses a ton of tackles, and doesn't make plays on the ball. He allowed 711 yards last season in coverage and 5 TD. He was targeted 6 times per game last season and only had 1 INT. He's legitimately one of the worst starting CB's in the NFL and when you start players like him and Karl Joseph you're going to have one of the worst defenses in the league. 

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

He's a matchup player for tight ends to me. He did a good job on Kelce.

That's what you have Randall, Abram, Kwit, and Littleton for. Worley is legitimately one of the worst CB's in the NFL.

Worley is too slow to cover WR's but doesn't have the ball skills or range to be good at FS. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by NYRaider

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, Humble_Beast said:

o.... I don't follow video games

You literally just used Madden ratings to justify Collins being a superior talent to Hurst and Hall. 

I was giving an example of why that holds no merit considering Cory Littleton was a 79 in Madden last year while Tahir Whitehead was a 76... lol. 

[jimkelly02]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

There's a reason we didn't bring him back, he doesn't have the speed to play in our scheme. Worley is slow, misses a ton of tackles, and doesn't make plays on the ball. He allowed 711 yards last season in coverage and 5 TD. He was targeted 6 times per game last season and only had 1 INT. He's legitimately one of the worst starting CB's in the NFL and when you start players like him and Karl Joseph you're going to have one of the worst defenses in the league. 

I agree he’s not a great CB but think he has value as a reserve on this team.  And it’s not definite he doesn’t come back.  I never said I wanted him to be a year long starter only that he could serve a role until a rookie is ready.  Expecting a rookie to start game 1 isn’t a great idea.  And worley was one of several players I advocated for, including Kirkpatrick and t.johnson.  Worley’s versatility to move to covering votes once a rookie is ready is one reason I like him as an option.

[jimkelly02]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

You literally just used Madden ratings to justify Collins being a superior talent to Hurst and Hall. 

I was giving an example of why that holds no merit considering Cory Littleton was a 79 in Madden last year while Tahir Whitehead was a 76... lol. 

I saw the rankings as just HB’s way of comparing the talent.  I don’t think their even The real ratings. 

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, jimkelly02 said:

I agree he’s not a great CB but think he has value as a reserve on this team.  And it’s not definite he doesn’t come back.  I never said I wanted him to be a year long starter only that he could serve a role until a rookie is ready.  Expecting a rookie to start game 1 isn’t a great idea.  And worley was one of several players I advocated for, including Kirkpatrick and t.johnson.  Worley’s versatility to move to covering votes once a rookie is ready is one reason I like him as an option.

What value does starting one of the worst CB's in the league have? Especially someone that's not a scheme fit at all. Worley is too slow to play CB but again doesn't have the range or ball skills to be a FS. So how is he really all that versatile? The only reason he saw the field for us last year was because we had the least talented secondary in the league, hell Curtis Riley was starting for us. Either way a rookie CB won't have to start week 1, we can start Nevin Lawson to begin the season. And you have Randall and Abram to cover TEs. If Worley is on the field at FS that means we're screwed. 

The problem with Raider fans is that we're so used to mediocrity that when a player even flashes being kind of good we don't want to move on. Worley sucks and so does Karl Joseph, we just need to run with our current group and a 1st round rookie. 

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

He's a matchup player for tight ends to me. He did a good job on Kelce.

I think most people want him back for that purpose and would be a decent backup at CB/S.  He is good depth and should be cheap.  I would like to see him transition to more of a safety type role.  Just like I never wanted to see Joseph matched up on Kelce I also never want to see Worley on any of the KC WRs.  Should just have Worley shadow Kelce and every other TE in our division.  Nothing but a chess piece and safety net.  I would take Worley as a backup over a player like Riley.  If we can upgrade the position to the point we do not need him then do not resign him but until that point he should be an option.

[jimkelly02]

47 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I think most people want him back for that purpose and would be a decent backup at CB/S.  He is good depth and should be cheap.  I would like to see him transition to more of a safety type role.  Just like I never wanted to see Joseph matched up on Kelce I also never want to see Worley on any of the KC WRs.  Should just have Worley shadow Kelce and every other TE in our division.  Nothing but a chess piece and safety net.  I would take Worley as a backup over a player like Riley.  If we can upgrade the position to the point we do not need him then do not resign him but until that point he should be an option.

Yes, Worley’s forecasted low cost, versatility, and ability to start a few games until a rookie is ready is why several people want him.  No one thinks he’s a great CB or will be one.... but he could be a key matchup piece and short term, cheap answer.

[raidr4life]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

You literally just used Madden ratings to justify Collins being a superior talent to Hurst and Hall. 

I was giving an example of why that holds no merit considering Cory Littleton was a 79 in Madden last year while Tahir Whitehead was a 76... lol. 

It's not the first time he the biggest Madden player here.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yes, Worley’s forecasted low cost, versatility, and ability to start a few games until a rookie is ready is why several people want him.  No one thinks he’s a great CB or will be one.... but he could be a key matchup piece and short term, cheap answer.

What versatility does he provide though? He's too slow to play press man in Gunther's system on the outside, not quick enough to cover slot guys, doesn't have the range or ball skills to be a FS, and misses too many tackles to be a box safety. Lawson is a better player and better scheme fit. He has the ability to start a few games and be one of the worst CB's in the league, lol. 

Who is he matching up with? If he's seeing the field to cover Kelce instead of Kwit/Littleton/Abram/Randall something is very wrong. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by NYRaider

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I think most people want him back for that purpose and would be a decent backup at CB/S.  He is good depth and should be cheap.  I would like to see him transition to more of a safety type role.  Just like I never wanted to see Joseph matched up on Kelce I also never want to see Worley on any of the KC WRs.  Should just have Worley shadow Kelce and every other TE in our division.  Nothing but a chess piece and safety net.  I would take Worley as a backup over a player like Riley.  If we can upgrade the position to the point we do not need him then do not resign him but until that point he should be an option.

That's what you have Randall, Abram, Kwit, and Littleton for. To take away plays over the middle of the field and matchup with TEs. Worley only moved to safety because we were starting the dynamic duo of Erik Harris/Curtis Riley and he was too slow to play outside CB. Like at what point are you ever going to bring Worley into a game at safety to cover Kelce before giving Randall or Abram the assignment? 

[drfrey13]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

That's what you have Randall, Abram, Kwit, and Littleton for. To take away plays over the middle of the field and matchup with TEs. Worley only moved to safety because we were starting the dynamic duo of Erik Harris/Curtis Riley and he was too slow to play outside CB. Like at what point are you ever going to bring Worley into a game at safety to cover Kelce before giving Randall or Abram the assignment? 

Say we are running a 4-2-5 defense against KC and they have are 3 wide plus Kelce.  Are you going to help on Kelce or Hill?  We do not have anyone that can play Kelce 1v1 except Randall but you would want him to help whoever is going up against Hill.  I like Littleton but you also have to worry about the RB coming out of the backfield.  Worley allows you to match up against Kelce 1v1.  He is not going to shut him down but can contain him enough that the entire defense does not breakdown.  If we did not have Fant, Henry, and Kelce in our division I might say the money is better spent somewhere else but that is six games every year he would earn his relatively small salary.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

Say we are running a 4-2-5 defense against KC and they have are 3 wide plus Kelce.  Are you going to help on Kelce or Hill?  We do not have anyone that can play Kelce 1v1 except Randall but you would want him to help whoever is going up against Hill.  I like Littleton but you also have to worry about the RB coming out of the backfield.  Worley allows you to match up against Kelce 1v1.  He is not going to shut him down but can contain him enough that the entire defense does not breakdown.  If we did not have Fant, Henry, and Kelce in our division I might say the money is better spent somewhere else but that is six games every year he would earn his relatively small salary.

You let Abram cover Kelce, Henry, and Fant. Or you let Randall lineup against the TE and have Abram help over the top.  In a 4-2-5 in the back 7 you'd have Littleton, Kwit, Mullen, Joyner, Lawson/Rookie, Abram, and Randall. Worley should not be seeing the field over Abram or Randall. Why do you guys keep suggesting that Worley is the ultimate TE stopper? Kelce had 12 catches for 197 yards against us last season, why didn't Gruden/Gunther have Worley shut him down if he has that type of ability?

[NYRaider]

We gave up the 11th most yards and 3rd most TD's to TEs last season despite having the Kelce stopper Daryl Worley on the team.