lancerman Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: I can think of 1 off the top of the head, Warren Moon. So basically in your opinion, forget what Rivers has done in 13 years of his career. He is a long shot. But if he wins MVP next year or a SB ring, a sudden long shot is a shoe-in? No offense but i dont think HOF voters use the same premise as us fans. Thats a very very fickle process. And you'd be wrong. Warren Moon has an All Pro. There's only 3 who only got in solely off an All Pros. Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls. Rivers went to zero. Warren Moon has a historical aspect to him that helped push him in the door. Rivers doesn't have that Dan Fouts has 4 All Pro selections and set records. He was probably one of the top 2 or 3 QB's from the late 70's to early 80's. He was also on the All decade team. Rivers has none of those Those are the guys that only had All Pro's to their name. Rivers will not get in without a ring or an MVP at this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: But only 2 or 3 of his contemporaries have comparable or better numbers and those contemporaries are considered the best ever. You make it sound like the numbers i gave you are bundled with 10 other guys. They pretty much are. Eli's top 10 in stats, Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, are also all in going to be top 10. Guys like Ryan and Stafford also will be in the ballpark as well. In fact Matt Ryan is pretty much on pace to match Rivers in yards and TD's if they have similar career lengths. Ryan also has an MVP, and All Pro, and a Super Bowl appearance to his name. If Rivers gets in then Ryan is already a lock. And I don't think most people view him as a lock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, Danger said: Brees, Brady, and Manning and Rodgers all have better numbers. Ben isn't far behind and has 2 Super Bowls to his name. Eli makes in simply because he led a team, a New York team even, to 2 Super Bowls. On individual merits alone, there's no way Eli would make it, but the simple fact is the HoF voters will consider his team accomplishments more impressive at the QB position. Eli doesn't make it with just 1 championship. Rodgers might have some better efficiency stats, but he doesnt have the volume stats or the consistency stats i pointed out of 4000 yd seasons or 25 td seasons. Ben who started before him is considerably behind him in that level of consistency per season. Only ones ahead of him are Peyton, Brees and Brady. 3 contemporaries/ qbs all time. He has the total wins, probowls, efficiency stats & seasons, volume stats and seasonal consistency that is at an all time level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 15 minutes ago, lancerman said: And you'd be wrong. Warren Moon has an All Pro. There's only 3 who only got in solely off an All Pros. Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls. Rivers went to zero. Warren Moon has a historical aspect to him that helped push him in the door. Rivers doesn't have that Dan Fouts has 4 All Pro selections and set records. He was probably one of the top 2 or 3 QB's from the late 70's to early 80's. He was also on the All decade team. Rivers has none of those Those are the guys that only had All Pro's to their name. Rivers will not get in without a ring or an MVP at this point You really believe a single all pro got a qb in the HOF? Voters are gonna look at the guys who were franchise qbs, who put up elite numbers for a long stretch of time. When Rivers retires he is gonna be top 5 in every major statline, with efficient stats and likely have 10 probowls. There is 0% chance he doesnt get in with those. Voters dont few it like fans. Fans love to extrapolate 1 season to overvalue an entire career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 To play Devil's Advocate against my man Philip Rivers: How big is the gap between him and Carson Palmer really? 9 minutes ago, lancerman said: They pretty much are. Eli's top 10 in stats, Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, are also all in going to be top 10. Guys like Ryan and Stafford also will be in the ballpark as well. In fact Matt Ryan is pretty much on pace to match Rivers in yards and TD's if they have similar career lengths. Ryan also has an MVP, and All Pro, and a Super Bowl appearance to his name. If Rivers gets in then Ryan is already a lock. And I don't think most people view him as a lock Hmm this is a fair point too. Next season Matt Ryan is going to be top 10 all time in passing yards barring injury. At his current pace if he only plays 3 more seasons he's going to 6th all time in passing yards and passing touchdowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: You really believe a single all pro got a qb in the HOF? Voters are gonna look at the guys who were franchise qbs, who put up elite numbers for a long stretch of time. When Rivers retires he is gonna be top 5 in every major statline, with efficient stats and likely have 10 probowls. There is 0% chance he doesnt get in with those. Voters dont few it like fans. Fans love to extrapolate 1 season to overvalue an entire career. Aaron Rodgers Passing Statistics for Career Games 2008 to 2018 Games Passing Passing Year Tm G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD Average 14.4 14.4 320.5 493.9 3874.1 30.6 7.2 36.6 237.6 Per 16 Games 16 16 357 550 4315 34 8 41 265 2008-2018 GNB 158 158 100-57-1 3525 5433 64.9 42615 337 6.2 79 1.5 93 7.8 8.4 12.1 269.7 103.5 403 2614 6.85 7.40 6.9 Philip Rivers Passing Statistics for Career Games 2006 to 2018 Games Passing Passing Year Tm G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD Average 16 16 346.2 536.2 4192.9 28.7 13.6 31.4 190.5 Per 16 Games 16 16 346 536 4193 29 14 31 190 2006-2018 SDG 208 208 118-90-0 4501 6970 64.6 54508 373 5.4 177 2.5 81 7.8 7.7 12.1 262.1 95.7 408 2476 7.05 6.98 5.5 Dude. It's plain as day. Aaron Rodgers has Philip Rivers beat statistically in every way. Congrats. Philip Rivers is 2 years older so he's played 2 more seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, lancerman said: They pretty much are. Eli's top 10 in stats, Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, are also all in going to be top 10. Guys like Ryan and Stafford also will be in the ballpark as well. In fact Matt Ryan is pretty much on pace to match Rivers in yards and TD's if they have similar career lengths. Ryan also has an MVP, and All Pro, and a Super Bowl appearance to his name. If Rivers gets in then Ryan is already a lock. And I don't think most people view him as a lock Eli doesnt have the efficieny stats and will not finish top 5 in any category. By the time Rivers retires, he will likely finish top 4 in every significant qb statline. I dont see ben or eli finishing with bigger or better numbers. I think voters value probowls more than fans. There is a reason no qb who has as many probowls as Rivers isnt in the HOF. Again, not to mention the wins. Only one above him not on the HOF are Brady, Brees, Peyton and Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Just now, Bearerofnews said: You really believe a single all pro got a qb in the HOF? Voters are gonna look at the guys who were franchise qbs, who put up elite numbers for a long stretch of time. When Rivers retires he is gonna be top 5 in every major statline, with efficient stats and likely have 10 probowls. There is 0% chance he doesnt get in with those. Voters dont few it like fans. Fans love to extrapolate 1 season to overvalue an entire career. Yeah voters count Super Bowls to be of supremely high value unlike fans. They've only excluded one multi time QB in the HOF and he had negative stats. They also let Aikman in first ballot without anywhere near top 10 stats because of 3 Super Bowls. They value All Pro's and MVP's because a lot of the same writers vote on it. These are the same voters that made Chris Carter wait 6 years when he was 2nd in all WR stats and made TO wait when he was pretty much a top 3 statititical WR. Drew Bledsoe retirered top 10 in the major passing stats and never got in. So yeah, you're right, the voters value different things. It's just different than the things you are overvaluing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Danger said: Aaron Rodgers Passing Statistics for Career Games 2008 to 2018 Games Passing Passing Year Tm G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD Average 14.4 14.4 320.5 493.9 3874.1 30.6 7.2 36.6 237.6 Per 16 Games 16 16 357 550 4315 34 8 41 265 2008-2018 GNB 158 158 100-57-1 3525 5433 64.9 42615 337 6.2 79 1.5 93 7.8 8.4 12.1 269.7 103.5 403 2614 6.85 7.40 6.9 Philip Rivers Passing Statistics for Career Games 2006 to 2018 Games Passing Passing Year Tm G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD Average 16 16 346.2 536.2 4192.9 28.7 13.6 31.4 190.5 Per 16 Games 16 16 346 536 4193 29 14 31 190 2006-2018 SDG 208 208 118-90-0 4501 6970 64.6 54508 373 5.4 177 2.5 81 7.8 7.7 12.1 262.1 95.7 408 2476 7.05 6.98 5.5 Dude. It's plain as day. Aaron Rodgers has Philip Rivers beat statistically in every way. Congrats. Philip Rivers is 2 years older so he's played 2 more seasons. You completely missed the point. You are using avgs, i directly said seasonal consistency. Its like a rb who has 11 seasons of 1000 yds and 10 tds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: Eli doesnt have the efficieny stats and will not finish top 5 in any category. By the time Rivers retires, he will likely finish top 4 in every significant qb statline. I dont see ben or eli finishing with bigger or better numbers. I think voters value probowls more than fans. There is a reason no qb who has as many probowls as Rivers isnt in the HOF. Again, not to mention the wins. Only one above him not on the HOF are Brady, Brees, Peyton and Ben. That's irrelevent. They value Super Bowls for QB's in the HOF. Eli will go in simply for his Super Bowls. He'd need Jim Plunkett like stats where he throws more INT than TD's and an abysmal passer rating to be left out. They don't value stats as much as you think they do. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ryan, Stafford, Eli, Ben and Peyton will all be top 10 all time at the time Rivers is eligible. That means 9 of the top 10 QB's will all be in this most recent era. They know that. They are going to seperate guys like Rivers and Stafford from the rest. Ben and Eli would not be getting in without rings. I think Ryan who is on the same statistical sphere as Rivers will still have trouble getting in even with an MVP. They aren't letting 9 guys from this era in. Brady/Peyton/Brees/Rodgers are no brainers. Then Eli and Ben will get in strictly off their rings. Everyone else needs to accomplish something else to have a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, lancerman said: Yeah voters count Super Bowls to be of supremely high value unlike fans. They've only excluded one multi time QB in the HOF and he had negative stats. They also let Aikman in first ballot without anywhere near top 10 stats because of 3 Super Bowls. They value All Pro's and MVP's because a lot of the same writers vote on it. These are the same voters that made Chris Carter wait 6 years when he was 2nd in all WR stats and made TO wait when he was pretty much a top 3 statititical WR. Drew Bledsoe retirered top 10 in the major passing stats and never got in. So yeah, you're right, the voters value different things. It's just different than the things you are overvaluing right now. This is all over the place. So lets break it down. They value sb's, yet there is a handful of qbs with rings who arent in or wont get in, there is plunkett with 2 who never got in. But there is literally 0 qbs with atleast 8 probowls who arent in the hall of fame. They made Chris wait due to his off field issues and TO wait due to his onfield issues. These are criterias some voters put stock in. Rivers has neither. You also used 2 WRs as comparison. Which i believe voters judge differently than qbs. Bledsoe was a 4 time probowler, broke 3000 yds 9 times, had very bad efficiency numbers. Rivers will likely finish with 10 probowls, will barring injury retire with top 4 stats in just about every major category, will have all time great consistency stats and all time efficiency stats with the overall wins. Where is the disconnect. There is 0 chance Rivers isnt in the HOF. Whether its 1st or 6th time, he will get in. Edited February 11, 2019 by Bearerofnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: This is all over the place. So lets break it down. They value sb's, yet there is a handful of qbs with rings who arent in or wont get in, there is plunkett with 2 who never got in. But there is literally 0 qbs with atleast 8 probowls who arent in the hall of fame. They made Chris wait due to his off field issues and TO wait due to his onfield issues. These are criterias some voters put stock in. Rivers has neither. You also used 2 WRs as comparison. Which i believe voters judge differently than qbs. Bledsoe was a 4 time probowler, broke 3000 yds 9 times, had very bad efficiency numbers. Rivers will likely finish with 10 probowls, will barring injury retire with top 4 stats in just about every major category, will have all time great consistency stats and all time efficiency stats with the overall wins. Where is the disconnect. There is 0 chance Rivers isnt in the HOF. Whether its 1st or 6th time, he will get in. 20 years from now. I'll come back here and make sure to remind you that Rivers still isn't in the Hall of Fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, Danger said: 20 years from now. I'll come back here and make sure to remind you that Rivers still isn't in the Hall of Fame. If 20 years from now we are both on here, we have bigger problems than Rivers HOF chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: This is all over the place. So lets break it down. They value sb's, yet there is a handful of qbs with rings who arent in or wont get in, there is plunkett with 2 who never got in. But there is literally 0 qbs with atleast 8 probowls who arent in the hall of fame. They made Chris wait due to his off field issues and TO wait due to his onfield issues. These are criterias some votes put stock in. Rivers has neither. You always used 2 WRs as comparison. Which i believe voters judge differently than qbs. Bledsoe was a 4 time probowler, broke 3000 yds 9 times, had very bad efficiency numbers. Rivers will likely finish with 10 probowls, will barring injury retire with top 4 stats in just about every major category, will have all time great consistency stats and all time efficiency stats. Where is the disconnect. There is 0 chance Rivers isnt in the HOF. Whether its 1st or 6th time, he will get in. Plunkett is the only QB with multiple rings not in, which was my point. I like how you deliberately needed to act like you didn't get that to exprapolate to every QB whose ever won a Super Bowl. That's super deflective and completely misleading buy whatever. Carter and TO WERE FAR SUPERIOR statsitically at their position than Rivers was. And that's a position where you're right they do look at it differently. They value stats a lot more for WR's and RB's than they do QB's. So that's actually a negative for Rivers. 14 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: This is all over the place. So lets break it down. They value sb's, yet there is a handful of qbs with rings who arent in or wont get in, there is plunkett with 2 who never got in. But there is literally 0 qbs with atleast 8 probowls who arent in the hall of fame. They made Chris wait due to his off field issues and TO wait due to his onfield issues. These are criterias some votes put stock in. Rivers has neither. You always used 2 WRs as comparison. Which i believe voters judge differently than qbs. Bledsoe was a 4 time probowler, broke 3000 yds 9 times, had very bad efficiency numbers. Rivers will likely finish with 10 probowls, will barring injury retire with top 4 stats in just about every major category, will have all time great consistency stats and all time efficiency stats. Where is the disconnect. There is 0 chance Rivers isnt in the HOF. Whether its 1st or 6th time, he will get in. The disconnect is that you're being disengenous and arguing in bad faith. They value Super Bowls. As evidence by the fact that multiple QB's with bad stats got in with multiple Super Bowls. Meanwhile only ONE QB has multiple Super Bowls and will not get in. That QB had a negative TD:INT ratio and a below 70 passer rating. I already mentioned this. If your counter is to mention that not EVERY QB with one Super Bowl isn't in, that's kind of a joke and disengenous. You are extrapoliating to an absurd degree to make the point that someone like Jim McMahon didn't get in. Carter and TO finished at a significantly superior level statsitiscally than anything Rivers has done. And you're right, they judge WR's differently. They in fact value stats far more for WR's. That doesn't help your argument. It hurts it. They value stats far less for QB's. Bledsoe was pretty close as Aikman in efficiecny stats and finished top 10 all time in yards and td's when his career ended. Aikman went in first ballot and Bledsoe isn't even close to the HOF. Again the disconnect is that you are not basing this off what the HOF voters have traditionally looked at and trying to oversell it to make your case. The Hall clearly values Super Bowls, MVP's and All Pro's for QB's to the point where it has never occured that a HOF QB hasn't had atleast one. Rivers would be the only one. You're arguing his case off yards and td career finishes which he's at a point where 9 of the top 10 will likely be from his era before he is even eligible. And you're trying to argue Pro Bowls, which I really shouldn't have to explain that they are more of a byproduct of other factors and not a primary. But whatever. Rivers is a long shot for the HOF by any metric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Joffrey Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Ben never got an all pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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