Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, lancerman said: He’d go from no shot to having a real shot. So you think the voting process is that fickle. That voters will ignore 14 years of consistently good to great play, all time numbers, the 8 probowls. But change their perspective due to 1 season with an all pro? How does this not sound crazy to anyone else? Honest question. Do you think a single season can make or break a HOF? If Ben and Eli had 1 ring, are they HOFers? If you take away Ryan or Cams 1 mvp/all pro/sb app season, are you even mentioning them? It seems to me you overvalue singular seasons. Voters have shown the propensity to not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: Ok and show me 1 QB all time with Rivers resume who isnt in the HOF. You keep bringing up era and contemporaries. But from a statistical standpoint, he is right there with the best of his era. Where the hypotheticals you keep throwing out are not. I’ve shown you an example of a QB that retired top 10 all time that didn’t get in and he didn’t have 9 people from his era in the top 10. I’ve given you an example of guys who didn’t finish anywhere near where Rivers did all time not Pro Bowl wise and got in because of an abundance of the metrics I had. First ballot at that. Guys that finished high in volume stats didn’t get in. Guys that had lots of Pro Bowls didn’t get in. You’re just arguing that Rivers has a bit more so he’s a special snowflake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: So you think the voting process is that fickle. That voters will ignore 14 years of consistently good to great play, all time numbers, the 8 probowls. But change their perspective due to 1 season with an all pro? How does this not sound crazy to anyone else? Honest question. Do you think a single season can make or break a HOF? If Ben and Eli had 1 ring, are they HOFers? If you take away Ryan or Cams 1 mvp/all pro/sb app season, are you even mentioning them? It seems to me you overvalue singular seasons. Voters have shown the propensity to not. That’s not fickle. A guy who was consistently bad with one great year that yielded an MVP won’t get in. A guy that was consistently above average without one, won’t get in (unless it’s Super Bowls which are usually higher value, then you can be merely average). Those are baseline accolades that show you were at one point at the top of the league at your position Voters have shown the propensity to not let any QB in without a Super Bowl, MVP or All Pro. Stop trying to act like you speak for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, lancerman said: I’ve shown you an example of a QB that retired top 10 all time that didn’t get in and he didn’t have 9 people from his era in the top 10. I’ve given you an example of guys who didn’t finish anywhere near where Rivers did all time not Pro Bowl wise and got in because of an abundance of the metrics I had. First ballot at that. Guys that finished high in volume stats didn’t get in. Guys that had lots of Pro Bowls didn’t get in. You’re just arguing that Rivers has a bit more so he’s a special snowflake Those arent comparable. Bledsoe didnt have close the statistically status Rivers did. Top 10 is vastly different than someone who could likely, very likely retire top 4 or 5 all time. In the same era with some of the best qbs ever and be right there with them statistically. If you can show me a qb who retired top 5 in the major stats and had more than a handful of probowls, that didn't make it, we can gracefully walk away from this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Just now, Bearerofnews said: Those arent comparable. Bledsoe didnt have close the statistically status Rivers did. Top 10 is vastly different than someone who could likely, very likely retire top 4 or 5 all time. In the same era with some of the best qbs ever and be right there with them statistically. If you can show me a qb who retired top 5 in the major stats and had more than a handful of probowls, that didn't make it, we can gracefully walk away from this. He was top 10. Rivers won’t be top 5 when he’s eligible. Ryan is already on pace to pass him. Stanford’s also up there in yards. Rodgers also will break into there. Also no Rivers retiring a handful of spots above where Bledsoe retired isn’t a great argument. Oh and Bledsoe had LESS competition during his era than Rivers. He didn’t have 6x Super Bowl Champion, a 5x MVP, the most efficient QB ever, a guy who will retire number 1 in ever stat, and two other QB’s with two Super Bowl titles all in the same time frame. Please stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, lancerman said: He was top 10. Rivers won’t be top 5 when he’s eligible. Ryan is already on pace to pass him. Stanford’s also up there in yards. Rodgers also will break into there. Also no Rivers retiring a handful of spots above where Bledsoe retired isn’t a great argument. Oh and Bledsoe had LESS competition during his era than Rivers. He didn’t have 6x Super Bowl Champion, a 5x MVP, the most efficient QB ever, a guy who will retire number 1 in ever stat, and two other QB’s with two Super Bowl titles all in the same time frame. Please stop I'll be shocked if Rivers isnt still top 5 in all major stats when he retires and is eligible. Ryan isnt a spring chicken. Rodgers has had some health issues and i dont see him playing as long as Rivers, Brady or Brees. Not even sure why you have Stafford there he is 14,000 yds away from Rivers and 140 tds away. Finishing top 5 in major position stats, being right there with his era's best isnt a great arguement? Peyton is gonna get in 1st ballot before Rivers even retires. Then Brady and Brees will likely be 2 years away from eligibility before Rivers retires. So Rivers competition will be Ben, Eli, Rodgers and maybe Ryan. You are projecting alot of out of nowhere QBs to stand in Rivers way. There really isnt any more worthy qbs on the docket. So once the top 4 from this era get in, Rivers will have a relatively clear path. Also the level of play qbs play at, at the end of their career has shown to be a big factor in leaving a lasting impression. Where Rivers is still playing at an elite high level where as Eli and Ben really arent. I am close to stopping, only because this is going no where and ill stop before it gets out of hand and personal and warnings are handed out. Edited February 13, 2019 by Bearerofnews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Just now, Bearerofnews said: I'll be shocked if Rivers isnt still top 5 in all major stats when he retires and is eligible. Ryan isnt a spring chicken. Rodgers has had some health issues and i dont see him playing as long as Rivers, Brady or Brees. Not even sure why you have Stafford there he is 14,000 yds away from Rivers and 140 tds away. Finishing top 5 in major position stats, being right there with his era's best isnt a great arguement? Peyton is gonna get in 1st ballot before Rivers even retires. Then Brady and Brees will likely be 2 years away from eligibility before Rivers retires. So Rivers competition will be Ben, Eli, Rodgers and maybe Ryan. You are projecting alot of out of nowhere QBs to stand in Rivers way. There really isnt any more worthy qbs on the docket. So once the top 4 from this era get in, Rivers will have a relatively clearly path. Also the level of play qbs play at to end their career has shown to be a big factor in leaving a lasting impression. Where Rivers is still playing at an elite high level where as Eli and Ben really arent. I am close to stopping, only because this is going no where and ill stop before it gets out of hand and personal and warnings are handed out. Nope guys at other positions that value stats a lot more for their HOF case waited years finishing hire than Rivers will be when he’s elgible. Huge part of why there is 5 year wait. The voters are keenly aware of stat inflation. You should already have stopped. I certainly haven’t made this personal. If it’s getting to you it just shows me that you are emotionally invested in the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Ben then Eli. Rivers won't and shouldn't get in. Eli will retire before Ben but Ben gets in on an earlier ballot than Eli does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Unless Rivers wins a Super Bowl, he won't get in. He's really going to get burned by the fact that by the time he is eligible for the hall, Matt Stafford, the most mediocre QB of all-time, will have already just about matched or bested all of Rivers career numbers. And all Rivers has is numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, minutemancl said: Unless Rivers wins a Super Bowl, he won't get in. He's really going to get burned by the fact that by the time he is eligible for the hall, Matt Stafford, the most mediocre QB of all-time, will have already just about matched or bested all of Rivers career numbers. And all Rivers has is numbers. Stafford isnt close to Rivers in stats. Rivers also has 8 probowls. The 12 other qbs to have that are all in the HOF or will be first ballots. Not to mention 9th all time in total wins and barring a bad year will be 8th next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minutemancl Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: Stafford isnt close to Rivers in stats. Rivers also has 8 probowls. The 12 other qbs to have that are all in the HOF or will be first ballots. Not to mention 9th all time in total wins and barring a bad year will be 8th next year. Yes, I know Stafford isn't close to Rivers in stats. 5 years after Rivers retires, when he is eligible for the hall, Stafford will be right on top of him. Stafford has the most everything for a QB ever before they turn 30, as far as passing statistics go. Then what? Are you going to argue Stafford should be in the Hall of Fame? Nobody respects pro bowl selections now. Why would they respect them and look at them favorably later, in consideration for the Hall of Fame? Unless Rivers wins a Super Bowl, he's not getting in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, minutemancl said: Yes, I know Stafford isn't close to Rivers in stats. 5 years after Rivers retires, when he is eligible for the hall, Stafford will be right on top of him. Stafford has the most everything for a QB ever before they turn 30, as far as passing statistics go. Then what? Are you going to argue Stafford should be in the Hall of Fame? Nobody respects pro bowl selections now. Why would they respect them and look at them favorably later, in consideration for the Hall of Fame? Unless Rivers wins a Super Bowl, he's not getting in. That sure is alot of projecting to give Stafford those kind of career stats. Who doesn't respect probowls? If that was the case, then why is there no qb in NFL history who has retired that has been to atleast 8 probowls not in the HOF? Why is probowl selections brought up at every HOF voting committee and inductions? Why is there probowl selction shows. Where did this idea that the probowl is meaningless come from? 39 players in NFL history have been to 10 probowls and all are in the HOF or will be (Brady, Peyton, Brees, Fitzgerald and Joe Thomas). Edited February 13, 2019 by Bearerofnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) Stafford, Ryan and Cam in 29 combined seasons have 8 probowls. Rivers alone has that in 12 years. In the AFC to boot. While playing most of his career in a small market. Stafford alone in 9 years has been a probowler 1 time. I didnt make the rules. I simply looked for a metrical criteria that showed a high value in equating to a definitive outcome. This is tangible data about the correlation probowl has with the HOF. Regardless what individuals perception is of the value of probowl or not. Edited February 13, 2019 by Bearerofnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Just now, Bearerofnews said: That sure is alot of projecting to give Stafford those kind of career stats. Who doesn't respect probowls? If that was the case, then why is there no qb in NFL history who has retired that has been to atleast 8 probowls not in the HOF? Why is probowl selections brought up at every HOF voting committees and inductions? Why is there probowl selction shows. Where did this idea that the probowl meaningless come from? 39 players in NFL history have been to 10 probowls and all are in the HOF or will be (Brady, Peyton, Brees, Fitzgerald and Joe Thomas). You projected how long Rivers would play for to get him top 5. He’s currently 8th all time in yards and he has two people from the exact same draft class in front of him and outside the top 10 in that stat. Ryan will almost undoubtedly pass him as well before he’s eligible given his careee totals. TD’s is worse. He might pass Marino to get in the top 5, but Ryan will knock him out and Eli and Ben are both close enough that if they play one more year than him, they will jump him. He has two members of his own draft class that are neck and neck with him in stats and they both have 2 rings. You really don’t think that hurts him lol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, lancerman said: You projected how long Rivers would play for to get him top 5. He’s currently 8th all time in yards and he has two people from the exact same draft class in front of him and outside the top 10 in that stat. Ryan will almost undoubtedly pass him as well before he’s eligible given his careee totals. TD’s is worse. He might pass Marino to get in the top 5, but Ryan will knock him out and Eli and Ben are both close enough that if they play one more year than him, they will jump him. He has two members of his own draft class that are neck and neck with him in stats and they both have 2 rings. You really don’t think that hurts him lol? Ben has mentioned retirement already before. I have a hard time seeing him playing longer than Rivers. Not to mention those guys started 2 years before Rivers. Im not sure Eli will be a starter moving forward. Rivers production hasnt dipped as evidence of this year. Ryan will have a chance. Depending how long Rivers plays. If Rivers just plays a measly 3 more years at his career avg he will retire top 5 in tds and yds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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