Art_Vandalay Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 8 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said: Eli is literally dramatically worse at everything. Again, Eli has 8 games to boast about while otherwise being mediocre at best. I mean, an 85 passer rating when you have played your ENTIRE career after the 04' rule changes? Most elite QB's are ~100 over the same time frame. In his entire career that has lasted roughly a decade and a half, he boasts just 68 more career touchdowns than he does turnovers. A QB's job is to lead the offense to put up points. Not a single Eli-lead offense has been great. The same can't be said for Rivers. I mean, this isn't even a comparison. Still not understanding what I'm saying. Let me convey it another way. Romo vs Eli. A lot of people are going to say Romo was the better QB, right? But who would you say has a better chance at the Hall? Eli, right? Why is that? Why is it guys that weren't statistically great (Namath, Aikman, Elway) are in the Hall? Again, debate who you'd prefer on your team all you want but that's not the discussion. I wouldn't be surprised to see Rivers get in down the road due to longevity and stats. All I'm saying is there's virtually no chance he gets in before Eli due to his virtually non-existent playoff success and lack of awards. When your most significant accolades are Pro Bowls, that's not great. It's like a musical artist racking up a bunch of MTV Music awards (Pro Bowl) but never winning a Grammy (All-pro / MVP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassomatic Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 On 16/03/2019 at 11:32 PM, Art_Vandalay said: More perspective: Hypothetically, all these active QB's retire right now: Brady Rodgers Brees Ben Eli Rivers Rivers is 6th on that list to get into the Hall and it's not debatable. So, in addition to everything else I mentioned -- no SB appearances, no first team all-pros, and no significant awards -- he wasn't even a top 5 QB of his era. Rivers is great... doesn't deserve a gold jacket. That'd be a nightmare scenario if it happened, because it'd be tough for the Selection Committee to induct three QBs at the same time, but if they all retired together, then I'd say the selections happen like this: 1. Brady and Brees go in together on the first ballot. 2. Rodgers waits a year, due to the brevity of his career relative to Brady and Brees. 3. Roethlisberger waits two years, due to the lack of major awards. 4. Eli Manning waits five years, due to his mediocre efficiency. 5. Rivers ends up as a Senior Committee inductee, if he ever gets in at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlowe22 Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 I’d like to see Rivers get into the HoF because I think he’s that quality of a player whether he has the accolades or not. Whether or not he actually does get in is a different story entirely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elky Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 Eli because he has the moments. Ben and Rivers aren't HoF imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) On 3/20/2019 at 8:21 AM, Art_Vandalay said: Still not understanding what I'm saying. Let me convey it another way. Romo vs Eli. A lot of people are going to say Romo was the better QB, right? But who would you say has a better chance at the Hall? Eli, right? Why is that? Why is it guys that weren't statistically great (Namath, Aikman, Elway) are in the Hall? Again, debate who you'd prefer on your team all you want but that's not the discussion. I don't necessarily care to arbitrarily speculate which one has the better chance to get into the Hall, because I simply don't see that as an especially fruitful effort. However, as far as I'm concerned, Rivers SHOULD have the better chance to get into the Hall of Fame, regardless of whether the voters are insane enough to get Eli into the Hall. Quote I wouldn't be surprised to see Rivers get in down the road due to longevity and stats. All I'm saying is there's virtually no chance he gets in before Eli due to his virtually non-existent playoff success and lack of awards. When your most significant accolades are Pro Bowls, that's not great. It's like a musical artist racking up a bunch of MTV Music awards (Pro Bowl) but never winning a Grammy (All-pro / MVP). You described exactly why Rivers should not get into the Hall. Neither of them should get into the Hall, not even close. If either of these guys get in, then the standards are wayyy too low. If one of them, for some reason, were to get inducted, it should be Rivers. Eli literally struggles year in and year out to have more touchdowns than turnovers. He has never lead a very productive offense in his entire career, and that's literally his job. By whatever means necessary, put points on the board, whether that be realizing that the best option is to run the ball at certain times, while still having the threat of the pass, or just surgically destroying somebody with the pass. Edited March 23, 2019 by C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Let me try to articulate this, by using ColdHardFootballFact's statistic they call "Real QBR" to measure the performance of every play for the QB. This is what he averages in his career: 355-604, 3736 Net Yards, 25.5 Total Touchdowns, 20.3 Turnovers, 77.0 Quarterback rating 58.9 CMP%, 6.18 NY/A, 4.22TD%, 3.36 TO%, 77.0 Quarterback rating This takes sacks, fumbles, and rushes into account, and it looks EVEN WORSE. He literally averages more than 20 turnovers per season while playing his entire career in the modern era of football. A 77 real quarterback rating. Just awful. This guy has no business even being on a HoF ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 On 2/11/2019 at 7:11 AM, lancerman said: I doubt any go first ballot. They have so many logjams at other positions and none of these guys are good enough to jump the line the way their peers will. Ben is the closest and I think he’s more of a second or third ballot guy. Eli will get in next but will likely wait awhile because his career has several negatives that will be a big deal (he led the league in INT 3 times, will likely retire with a losing record, and was largely mediocre his whole career) Rivers isnt getting in. Text book Hall of Very Good. He needs a ring or MVP to have a chance imo This is exactly what I think too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 6 hours ago, Uncle Buck said: This is exactly what I think too. I don't see why Ben wouldn't be 1st ballot. Quarterbacks are generally favored in the voting, and he is up there as one of the great QBs in history. I don't think either of the other two have any business even being inducted in ANY ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Buck Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 2 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said: I don't see why Ben wouldn't be 1st ballot. Quarterbacks are generally favored in the voting, and he is up there as one of the great QBs in history. I don't think either of the other two have any business even being inducted in ANY ballot. Maybe I just haven't seen enough of his games, but in my opinion, he is very good, just not on the same level as "the great QB's in history." I don't think he is even in my Top 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 3 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said: I don't see why Ben wouldn't be 1st ballot. Quarterbacks are generally favored in the voting, and he is up there as one of the great QBs in history. I don't think either of the other two have any business even being inducted in ANY ballot. What do you base this on? Solely his 2 sb rings? Which in 1 he played horrible in. Because Rivers numbers are better when you do avgs/efficiency. Rivers absolutely belongs on the ballot based on the standard the HOF has set for QBs. He is one of the best to ever play the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 12 hours ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said: I don't see why Ben wouldn't be 1st ballot. Quarterbacks are generally favored in the voting, and he is up there as one of the great QBs in history. I don't think either of the other two have any business even being inducted in ANY ballot. Ben’s probably not a fringe top 20 or 25 all time at his position and he played in an era with at least 5 top 10 guys (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning, Favre). At no other position would a guy like Ben go first ballot. Ben’s not a guy voters are going to rush to push through the door at the expense of guys who have waited awhile and are stuck in a logjam. You don’t do that for a player like Ben. You do that for a player like Brees who is going to have every all time records at his position or is like top 5. There’s too many great players at his position in his era and too many guys who deserve to be in that are waiting. People really need look at the type of player that gets in first ballot.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KManX89 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 On 2/11/2019 at 12:04 AM, Forge said: Such blatant disrespect to JP Losman to not even include him as an option. Anyways, I'd say Ben probably gets in first. A few years ago, I would've said Eli, but his lackluster recent seasons kinda drags his stock down a little bit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 23 hours ago, Uncle Buck said: Maybe I just haven't seen enough of his games, but in my opinion, he is very good, just not on the same level as "the great QB's in history." I don't think he is even in my Top 20. Well, I think he would probably fit into my top 20 if I were to sit down and make a top 20. I think top 20 all time constitutes "great QB's in history" as far as I'm concerned. If not top 20, probably top 25. 13 hours ago, lancerman said: Ben’s probably not a fringe top 20 or 25 all time at his position and he played in an era with at least 5 top 10 guys (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning, Favre). Why exactly is he probably not a "fringe top 20 or 25 all time" at his position? I don't see why half of the top 10 needs to be occupied by people from this era, either. 23 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: What do you base this on? Solely his 2 sb rings? Which in 1 he played horrible in. Because Rivers numbers are better when you do avgs/efficiency. Rivers absolutely belongs on the ballot based on the standard the HOF has set for QBs. He is one of the best to ever play the game. After thinking about it a little more, I don't think Ben should really be a 1st ballot guy. I base that on the fact that they have extremely similar numbers and Rivers has little playoff success, while neither of them really have any accolades or prestige to speak of. Their number's averages 05-present: Ben Roethisberger: 350-544, 4243 yards, 27.4 Touchdowns, 14.2 Interceptions, 94.1 passer rating 64.3 CMP%, 7.79 Y/A, 5.03TD%, 2.60 INT%, 94.1 passer rating Philip Rivers: 340-528, 4124 yards, 28.2 Touchdowns, 13.4 Interceptions, 95.6 passer rating 64.5 CMP%, 7.81 Y/A, 5.34TD%, 2.54 INT%, 95.6 passer rating If Rivers gets in with decent numbers playing for a long time with no accolades to speak of, then the standards for the HoF is way too damn low. Like I said, is he better than guys already in? Sure. Does that mean two wrongs make a right? Nope. He is absolutely not one of the best to ever play the game. Not even close. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 51 minutes ago, C0LTSFAN4L1F3 said: Well, I think he would probably fit into my top 20 if I were to sit down and make a top 20. I think top 20 all time constitutes "great QB's in history" as far as I'm concerned. If not top 20, probably top 25. Why exactly is he probably not a "fringe top 20 or 25 all time" at his position? I don't see why half of the top 10 needs to be occupied by people from this era, either. After thinking about it a little more, I don't think Ben should really be a 1st ballot guy. I base that on the fact that they have extremely similar numbers and Rivers has little playoff success, while neither of them really have any accolades or prestige to speak of. Their number's averages 05-present: Ben Roethisberger: 350-544, 4243 yards, 27.4 Touchdowns, 14.2 Interceptions, 94.1 passer rating 64.3 CMP%, 7.79 Y/A, 5.03TD%, 2.60 INT%, 94.1 passer rating Philip Rivers: 340-528, 4124 yards, 28.2 Touchdowns, 13.4 Interceptions, 95.6 passer rating 64.5 CMP%, 7.81 Y/A, 5.34TD%, 2.54 INT%, 95.6 passer rating If Rivers gets in with decent numbers playing for a long time with no accolades to speak of, then the standards for the HoF is way too damn low. Like I said, is he better than guys already in? Sure. Does that mean two wrongs make a right? Nope. He is absolutely not one of the best to ever play the game. Not even close. Because it's very easy to think of guys to put over him. Just off the top of my head: Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Marino, Montana, Graham, Luckman, Unitas, Starr, Elway, Favre, Young, Staubach, Warner, Tarkenton, Dawson. Thats 17 guys right there that without having to think too much I'd put about Ben without even a second thought. So he's already fringe top 20. Then you have guys like Stabler and Fouts who legitimately had years where they were the best QB's in the league and were top tier for extended stretches, then you have older guys like Van Brocklin who are super difficult to judge. Put it this way, Kurt Warner who has a Super Bowl, made 3 appearances and had two MVP's did not go in first ballot. Also keep in mind currently there are exactly 35 QB's in the HOF. Ben would absolutely be on the lower end all time of HOF QB's while at least 5 of his peers would be on the extreme high end (Favre already in and eventually Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers will all likely be viewed as top 10). Ben's somebody who realistically deserves to get in at some point with in his first 4-5 ballots. I'd probably make him wait until 2 or 3. Now that can change if the class around him is weak. But if it's between Ben or some poor sap whose been waiting forever and this is his best chance, they are going with the guy waiting. You only let guys jump the line if the are so undisputed that there's no case to make. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 21 hours ago, lancerman said: Ben's somebody who realistically deserves to get in at some point with in his first 4-5 ballots. So then we are in agreement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.