Art_Vandalay Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: If we went by passer rating, Eli's best season was 93.6. Rivers has had 8 seasons with a higher passer rating than that. By your own admission Rivers is "great". Would you really call Eli great or even close? At very best; good. So by your logic the great player doesnt deserve to be in the hall. But the good player who had a couple of great moments does? I mean even saying that out loud under the simplest terms doesnt make sense. HOF careers are not about a couple of moments. They are about continued excellence/greatness. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Eli was great for a while. Inconsistent yes, but was great at times. I would imagine HOF voters would consider 2 SB MVPs >>>>>>>> career passer rating. I wouldn't vote Rivers in but I wouldn't be surprised if he gets in down the road. He sure as hell isnt getting in before Eli though, unless he does something more significant than accumulate regular season stats. You referred to him as a poor mans Marino earlier. I'd consider him a rich mans Kirk Cousins. Stat-padder extraordaire but disappears when it matters most. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said: You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Eli was great for a while. Inconsistent yes, but was great at times. I would imagine HOF voters would consider 2 SB MVPs >>>>>>>> career passer rating. I wouldn't vote Rivers in but I wouldn't be surprised if he gets in down the road. He sure as hell isnt getting in before Eli though, unless he does something more significant than accumulate regular season stats. You referred to him as a poor mans Marino earlier. I'd consider him a rich mans Kirk Cousins. Stat-padder extraordaire but disappears when it matters most. You are teetering far to much on the extreme contrarian side of the spectrum. The consesus amongst the majority of fans, analyst and media has never been that Eli was ever great at any point in his career. Id feel comfortable saying that is around a 90% conseus. Tell me when Eli has even been great and point to what made him great exactly? The 2 sb's where his defense held NE to 17 and 14 points in both games? Or when he has gone 1 and done in 4 of 6 playoff appearances. Meanwhile Rivers has won a playoff game in 4 of 6 playoff appearances. Eli has done nothing without Coughlin. Rivers has made the playoffs with 4 diff coaches, made the probowl with 4 diff coaches and won a playoff game with 3 diff coaches. Calling Rivers a rich man Cousin is arguably the dumbest take ive ever heard. Stat padders compile without wins. Rivers is one of the winningest QBs in NFL history. Top 8 in all time wins. Simple question, no qualifiers. Who is the better qb and the better player; Rivers or Eli? Edited March 18, 2019 by Bearerofnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: You are teetering far to much on the extreme contrarian side of the spectrum. The consesus amongst the majority of fans, analyst and media has never been that Eli was ever great at any point in his career. Id feel comfortable saying that is around a 90% conseus. Now you're just saying things you can provide no evidence of. 7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: Tell me when Eli has even been great and point to what made him great exactly? I said it on the last page -- "In 2011, he threw for just under 5000 yards and carried the 32nd ranked defense and the 27th ranked rushing attack to a Super Bowl win." Name another QB that took the dead last defense and a bottom 6 rushing attack to the Super Bowl. The defense stepped up in the Super Bowl, but Eli still had to make two of the clutchest drives in history to win both games. Had Eli not put the team on his back that season, they wouldn't even have sniffed the Super Bowl... "Oh but passer rating" lol 7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: Meanwhile Rivers has won a playoff game in 4 of 6 playoff appearances. Eli has done nothing without Coughlin. Rivers has made the playoffs with 4 diff coaches, made the probowl with 4 diff coaches and won a playoff game with 3 diff coaches. You're actually going to argue playoff success when one guy is 5-6 with one conference championship appearance and the other is 8-4 with two Super Bowl MVP's in the same time span? 7 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: Simple question, no qualifiers. Who is the better qb and the better player; Rivers or Eli? In their primes, I'm sure as hell not going with the guy that only made one conference championship in 14 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/17/2019 at 8:09 AM, Art_Vandalay said: Cmon now. From the start of the 07 postseason up until 2016, he was much more than an average QB. In 2011, he threw for just under 5000 yards and carried the 32nd ranked defense and the 27th ranked rushing attack to a Super Bowl win. I like making fun of Eli as much as the next guy, but this constant talk of him being an average QB is making him one of the most underrated QBs of all time. Rivers has been more consistent for sure, but Eli's done some great, HOF-caliber things. Rivers doesn't have that big game ability. Eli definitely wasn't much more than average. Outside of that 2011 season he's been middling. He's a big reason they only have 1 playoff appearances since 2011. There's a reason their point differential was only 22 in 2016 despite having the the number 2 defense in the league (in terms of PPG). The Browns and Lions were the only teams they beat that year by more than 10 points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Eli was good in 2011, but even in that year not exactly elite. He "carried" them to 9-7 with the help of two receivers having career years catching deep bombs. In the playoffs really not enough credit at all is given to the defense either. They held the Falcons to zero offensive points and forced 4 turnovers out of GB. The NFCCG was won off of a forced fumble on a punt return, and in the SB held a #3 pats offense to 15 net points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 33 minutes ago, Bobikus said: Eli was good in 2011, but even in that year not exactly elite. He "carried" them to 9-7 with the help of two receivers having career years catching deep bombs. In the playoffs really not enough credit at all is given to the defense either. They held the Falcons to zero offensive points and forced 4 turnovers out of GB. The NFCCG was won off of a forced fumble on a punt return, and in the SB held a #3 pats offense to 15 net points. These are the kind of statements that Eli's career so damn underrated. He received no help at all from his running game and defense throughout the regular season, but the fact that he had two good WR's (neither of which will sniff the Hall) diminishes what he did. He did get more help that postseason. Lord knows no team is going to win the Super Bowl with no defense, no running game, and having to sling it for 400 yards per game. But here are his postseason stats from that year... 305 passing ypg 65% completion pct 9 TDs, 1 turnover Game-winning SB drive and SB MVP Rivers will probably get in down the road. But sorry, there's no way he gets in before Eli. It's just not happening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobikus Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 The point is saying he "carried the team" is a pretty strong (and false) claim. It's also the only year in a long career where he was notably above average during the season. And yeah, that his year had a lot to do with how good the Nicks/Cruz duo was that year kind of stands out when the year itself is such an aberration compared to his play during every other season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Art_Vandalay said: Now you're just saying things you can provide no evidence of. I said it on the last page -- "In 2011, he threw for just under 5000 yards and carried the 32nd ranked defense and the 27th ranked rushing attack to a Super Bowl win." Name another QB that took the dead last defense and a bottom 6 rushing attack to the Super Bowl. The defense stepped up in the Super Bowl, but Eli still had to make two of the clutchest drives in history to win both games. Had Eli not put the team on his back that season, they wouldn't even have sniffed the Super Bowl... "Oh but passer rating" lol You're actually going to argue playoff success when one guy is 5-6 with one conference championship appearance and the other is 8-4 with two Super Bowl MVP's in the same time span? In their primes, I'm sure as hell not going with the guy that only made one conference championship in 14 years. Make a poll if you think it cant be proven. In fact go find any article that refers to Eli as great from the media or any analyst. I bet if you went to NYG message board and asked if Eli was ever great, the consensus would be no. You are overrating Eli based on 1 season. A season where he had 61% comp, 28 tds to 16 ints and a 92.9 passer rating. In his 2 playoff runs, his defense didn't allow more than 20 points in any of the 8 playoff games. In post season games where Eli's defense allowed more than 20 points, Eli is 0-4 in the playoffs. So for their entirity of their careers Eli is the better player and qb? I thought this was where intelligent football conversations happened, wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
game3525 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Quote I dont see Eli getting in over Rivers. Eli is Plunket and Rivers is Marino lite. Yeah, the thing with Eli vs Rivers is that they aren't really close statistically outside of volume. This is different from Rivers vs Ben since they are so close statistically that the difference comes from post season success. I used to think Eli would get in before Rivers, but I am not so sure anymore. Their careers since 2012 have gone in opposite directions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenos Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 He gets in easily with a Superbowl MVP. It'll take longer given the way things are. Shame that he never got the MVP for the 2008 season. If the defense hadn't blown the Panthers/Steelers game, and Hoculli hadn't blown the whistle against the Broncos, he may have gotten it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 It's gotta be Ben, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: So for their entirity of their careers Eli is the better player and qb? I thought this was where intelligent football conversations happened, wow. Again, Rivers has undoubtedly been more consistent. But look at what actually matters when getting into the Hall (hint: passer rating isn't atop the list). All-time passing yardage: About the same Total wins: About the same TDs: About the same Major awards (MVP, OPOTY, All-pros): About the same Postseason success: Eli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rivers This is all I'm saying. You're obsessed with passer rating. When HOF QBs are discussed, how many talking heads on sports shows are like, Man, that passer rating though. Look at the career stats of guys like Aikman, Elway, Namath, Kelly, Staubach etc. While consistent statistical success is valuable, it's more so about your accomplishments. Jim Kelly never won a ship but four AFC championships is amazing in of itself. Rivers, despite nearly 15 years in the league and being on some amazing teams, reached a conference championship once. His career has been a little better than Tony Romo's. We can debate who we'd take on our team forever, but Eli undoubtedly has the better HOF resume. Edited March 19, 2019 by Art_Vandalay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 It’s fruitless to compare Rivers to Eli. Eli’s entire HOF case is his Super Bowls. If you took them out, he would not be in. He’s not getting in off great stats or even that he placed high in all time volume. He’s getting in off two post season runs that made him a historically significant QB. Rivers does not have that, so comparing other pieces which have minimal to nothing to do with Eli’s case, is rather pointless. Lots of QB’s who haven’t made the HOF were better than Eli outside of those two post seasons. Rivers isn’t the first and isn’t the last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 (edited) On 3/17/2019 at 8:24 PM, Art_Vandalay said: He sure as hell isnt getting in before Eli though, unless he does something more significant than accumulate regular season stats. Accumulating team accomplishments isn't exactly especially more valuable. Frankly, neither of them should get in, but if one of them were to get in, it SHOULD be Rivers. Considering Eli has been so consistently terrible and/or at best mediocre, he ultimately deserves it less than Rivers who has had a solid, positive impact on his team for basically the entirety of his character. Neither player has been fantastic, or been one of the best QB's in the league, but Rivers has consistently been up there. Eli's entire career is more or less defined by 8 games. Here are their careers standardized into 16 game seasons: Rivers:341-528, 4137 yards, 28.4 Touchdowns, 13.3 Interceptions, 96.0 passer rating 64.6 CMP%, 7.83 Y/A, 5.38TD%, 2.51 INT%, 96.0 passer rating Eli: 337-557, 3933 yards, 25.4 Touchdowns, 16.5 Interceptions, 84.8 passer rating 60.5 CMP%, 7.05 Y/A, 4.56TD%, 2.96 INT%, 84.8 passer rating Eli is literally dramatically worse at everything. Again, Eli has 8 games to boast about while otherwise being mediocre at best. I mean, an 85 passer rating when you have played your ENTIRE career after the 04' rule changes? Most elite QB's are ~100 over the same time frame. In his entire career that has lasted roughly a decade and a half, he boasts just 68 more career touchdowns than he does turnovers. A QB's job is to lead the offense to put up points. Not a single Eli-lead offense has been great. The same can't be said for Rivers. I mean, this isn't even a comparison. Edited March 20, 2019 by C0LTSFAN4L1F3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 On 3/18/2019 at 7:43 PM, ET80 said: It's gotta be Ben, right? Yeah, I think it is more about "Who gets in 2nd?" now at this point in this thread's development. Obviously Ben is the guy out of the three of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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