YogiBiz Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 7 hours ago, Shockey1979 said: Not sure about blowing over. OBJ is a generational talent and I'm certain will continue to have an outstanding career. He will be missed. However a part of me feels this is the right move to make to rebuild. I just can't shake the feeling that much more could have been gotten in return for him. It is, and I would have wanted more. I also attribute the haul to be so meh because of the Antonio Brown trade. They wanted to do right by him and trade him to a team on the way up. And trade him to a place where he can be comfortable, competitive, and thrive. Is wrong for Gettleman to do right by a player he jettisons? Slight yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, YogiBiz said: It is, and I would have wanted more. I also attribute the haul to be so meh because of the Antonio Brown trade. They wanted to do right by him and trade him to a team on the way up. And trade him to a place where he can be comfortable, competitive, and thrive. Is wrong for Gettleman to do right by a player he jettisons? Slight yes. No they traded him out the NFC that’s what they did. The Giants reportedly got much better offers in the NFC and they declined because they didn’t wanna trade him in conference. Have the courage of your convictions and not even let that thought enter your head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmenSeattle Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 43 minutes ago, Acgott said: Cutting Eli gives us 17M of useable cap. The 6M cap for the dead money, we already can't use because of Eli's contract. Thats a lot of money we can use to help the team. Sure but a chunk of that $17M has to go to a QB. Likely more than 1 year. So like I said, if that's the case I'd rather let it ride with Eli for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acgott Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, GmenSeattle said: Sure but a chunk of that $17M has to go to a QB. Likely more than 1 year. So like I said, if that's the case I'd rather let it ride with Eli for a year. AJ McCarron, Chase Daniels, Chad Henne, Ryan Fitzpatrick A few QBs that have a cap hit under 5M and would produce the same exact results. We need to use that cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: There are a lot of things that go into winning SBs, it’s never just one thing. People point to well, “when was the last time an great or elites WR won a SB”? It’s a silly statement for one Julio, Moss, Fitz, were all guys that were close to winning and that notion would be put to bed. Secondly correlation =/= causation. Beckham is a piece you use for a rebuild. He’s not somebody you get rid of. You don’t get rid of a HOF talent and think that it helps with a rebuild. Louis Rodrick, who I’m starting to think should’ve been hired instead, made a great point about how these executives have this arrogance that any player is replaceable. The compensation that is equatable to Beckhams talents and impact is very high so you’re gonna get fair value for him or even close which is why you don’t trade him. You can rebuild with Beckham. People make it seem as if the only way to rebuild is getting rid of Beckham. Let’s face it, they traded him because he isn’t a personality fit for this current management which for that, shame on them They've had an elite receiver for 5 seasons. Only once were they over .500 under two leadership regimes... same results. WR's and RB's ARE replaceable. What isn't is solid QB play, defense, pass rush, and protection. Those are the factors that separate the good from the bad in this league. Can you protect your passer, and can you get to the opposing passer. The Pats have shown us year in and year out that you don't need elite receiving. You need a solid scheme, good protection, and a franchise QB. Obtaining a great WR can take you from bad to decent, or good to great. Throw Moss on a great Pats team and they become elite. It's like throwing gasoline on a brush fire. But you have to have the spark first...a great WR can't carry a team like a great QB can. WR's and RB's are expendable set pieces. They aren't core components. You don't build around them. I know you're doom and gloom about it. But at least wait and see what the final product is. None of us are "happy" about the trade. But I can at least see what he's trying to accomplish. Whether he pulls it off...well who knows. But at least let him assemble the ingredients and cook the meal before you take a bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Acgott said: AJ McCarron, Chase Daniels, Chad Henne, Ryan Fitzpatrick A few QBs that have a cap hit under 5M and would produce the same exact results. We need to use that cap. I'm assuming a move will be coming soon to attain the next franchise QB. Whether it's Haskins, Murray, or Rosen sitting behind Eli and learning for a year would be a nice start to their career. Rather then throwing them to the buzzsaw and burning them out like David Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Shockey1979 said: They've had an elite receiver for 5 seasons. Only once were they over .500 under two leadership regimes... same results. WR's and RB's ARE replaceable. What isn't is solid QB play, defense, pass rush, and protection. Those are the factors that separate the good from the bad in this league. Can you protect your passer, and can you get to the opposing passer. The Pats have shown us year in and year out that you don't need elite receiving. You need a solid scheme, good protection, and a franchise QB. Obtaining a great WR can take you from bad to decent, or good to great. Throw Moss on a great Pats team and they become elite. It's like throwing gasoline on a brush fire. But you have to have the spark first...a great WR can't carry a team like a great QB can. WR's and RB's are expendable set pieces. They aren't core components. You don't build around them. I know you're doom and gloom about it. But at least wait and see what the final product is. None of us are "happy" about the trade. But I can at least see what he's trying to accomplish. Whether he pulls it off...well who knows. But at least let him assemble the ingredients and cook the meal before you take a bite. Game changing receivers like Odell aren’t replaceable. We had a rare talent and we let him go. That’s not replaceable. Chances of finding another Odell are almost zero. Just like Saquon, these talents are rare. You don’t see them everyday. And here’s my issue with this take, people actually think that it either/or. Like we can’t have Odell and try to find those “solid QBs, pass rush...” at the same time. Odell isn’t stopping you from getting that. It is very rare for a team to trade a player in his prime one year after signing a new deal. You only trade these rare talents if he is so much trouble than he’s worth, he’s on the decline or if you’re just blown away by an offer. None of those reasons exist here. We should just trade Saquon right now if we wanna get these other positions sorted out, but we all know why that’s ridiculous. And here’s the kicker, before you even paid Odell we didn’t have Solid QB play, we didn’t have a solid pass rush or solid pass pro so why on earth would you think we’re set to get those pieces because we traded him? Trading a known quantity for a bunch of unknowns is a huge risk. And so right now, the fact that they’re Unknown’s and we’re banking on the crapshoot of the draft to see what we get is just arrogant. The fact that we found Odell where we did just shows you. Until i see otherwise, this is a massive L. Good franchises don’t trade away game changing players in his prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen19851 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: Quote That’s not replaceable. Chances of finding another Odell are almost zero. Just like Saquon, these talents are rare. You don’t see them everyday. We found 2 in four years. So I wouldn't say almost zero. Quote Odell isn’t stopping you from getting that. Paying him 20 million dollars a year makes it harder. Quote Trading a known quantity for a bunch of unknowns is a huge risk. And so right now, the fact that they’re Unknown’s and we’re banking on the crapshoot of the draft to see what we get is just arrogant. The fact that we found Odell where we did just shows you. Until i see otherwise, this is a massive L. Bellicheck has traded away numerous players for unknown quantities. And yes you're correct, the draft is a crap shoot. But how can you possibly call this trade a loss until you see 1) what we do with the picks we got and 2) what we do with the cap space we've freed up for next year. Listen, I'm not a huge fan of this trade, but you can't deny the fact that trading Odell allows this team, which has numerous holes, go out and get multiple starters. Not only with the picks we got, but also with the 20 million a year we aren't paying Odell anymore. The thing that sucks is we won't know the true outcome of this trade until next offseason. But with 12 picks this year, a likely high pick next year and probably 100 million in cap space next year the rebuild is on the way whether we like it or not. By this time next year we will probably look a lot like the Jets and Browns of last year and this year. And I would say those two teams have an arrow trending up as far as looking like young teams that can contend in the next few years. Do we have a lot of work to do? Yes. But I'm looking forward to what hopefully we can call the next era of Giants football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go_Giants Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 11 hours ago, YogiBiz said: It is, and I would have wanted more. I also attribute the haul to be so meh because of the Antonio Brown trade. They wanted to do right by him and trade him to a team on the way up. And trade him to a place where he can be comfortable, competitive, and thrive. Is wrong for Gettleman to do right by a player he jettisons? Slight yes. The Steelers got a 3rd and 5th round draft picks for Antonio. We got a 1st a 3rd and a potential Probowl safety that still has years on his rookie deal, to me that is like getting another 1st round pick and Odell is no longer in the NFC. I been more critical of Gettleman than most, with that said this was a very good trade for the Giants. We will be a force again in 2021. Just going to be tough watching games in 2019 and 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 @Gmen19851 so because we found 2 in 4 years we think it’s that easy? That’s pure luck. We got Odell and we didn’t envision he’d be this great. Hes a game changing receiver, he’s gonna be expensive. I’m no cap expert, but the contract isn’t even crippling. Cleveland will be paying him 15 mil per year as it stands which is a great. We got a first round pick and a late third (essentially a fourth) and a safety to replace Landon Collins. With Eli coming off the books next year and if I’m not mistaken JackRabbit too we were gonna have a lot cap space too. Y’all keep operating under the assumption that Odell would be the reason we couldn’t rebuild which is false. If that’s the case then don’t even bother paying Saquon in a few years. Belichick doesn’t trade away elite players for unknown quantities. Odell isn’t just good player. You don’t draft elite players to get rid of them. And let’s be real here they traded him because his personality didn’t match with management. If he was a choir boy trust me they don’t make this decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 It's not that we "couldn't rebuild with Odell" it's more that I understand why he would make this move to attain the pieces they did. In the end when you look at both trades together you traded Vernon and OBJ for a stud G, and young potentially stud S, a 1st and a 3rd that can be used to attain your next franchise QB, and a stud pass rusher or RT. I never said OBJ was "replaceable" I said elite WR's and RB's aren't core components you build around. They don't produce winning franchises. Put another way...you don't need an elite WR to win games. You need strong protection for your passer, and the ability to get after the other teams passer. We lack both of those things. Was trading OBJ "necessary" to obtain those? Maybe not. But if the end result here produces a winning formula then it was a good sacrifice to make. If it doesn't then a couple of years from now we can officially crucify DG. But for now we have to wait and see what the end game is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 21 hours ago, Acgott said: You don’t trade good talent. eli needs to be cut. It’s a ridiculous decision to keep him. Use his cap to fix the team and sign Tannehill. FIFY Edit: NVM apparently The Dolphins have NOT cut Tannehill yet like some bums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gmen19851 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: Quote @Gmen19851 so because we found 2 in 4 years we think it’s that easy? That’s pure luck. We got Odell and we didn’t envision he’d be this great. I never said it was going to be easy. And yes it might not happen. But saying the chances it happens are almost zero is not accurate. Quote Cleveland will be paying him 15 mil per year as it stands which is a great. We got a first round pick and a late third (essentially a fourth) and a safety to replace Landon Collins. Cleveland is paying him that much money because we traded him. Yes they get him at a discount now, but only because he was traded and the contract was front loaded. Quote Odell isn’t just good player. You don’t draft elite players to get rid of them. And let’s be real here they traded him because his personality didn’t match with management. If he was a choir boy trust me they don’t make this decision You're right. Odell is elite. I personally think hes the best receiver in the league. I'm not arguing that fact. I'm arguing that paying a receiver that much money is not a winning formula. The positional value just isnt there. Look at the compensation for Antonio Brown and Odell. Then look at the compensation for Khalil Mack. You win by building the lines and having a QB in this league. I fully expect Getttleman to use the draft capital this year to build up the lines and defense. Then sometime in the next year, whether it be this draft, next years draft or Rosen to go and get a QB of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YogiBiz Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 18 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: No they traded him out the NFC that’s what they did. The Giants reportedly got much better offers in the NFC and they declined because they didn’t wanna trade him in conference. Have the courage of your convictions and not even let that thought enter your head What rumors or reports. I have not seen any such claims from any credible Giants' source. Why you gotta make **** up to make a bad situation already worse. Are you thinking swapping selections with the 49ers being a better offer? It is not really, and reports say they actually hadn't gotten passed preliminary talks with the Giants. Mainly because they did not want to include a second 1st if it was a swap or add a former first round pick if it was just straight up. They wanted OBJ, our first for the First and spare change. That trade is significantly worse. We would have valued OBJ as two seconds in order to move up in the draft four spots. That is a terrible trade. This trade OBJ is valued as a 2017 First Round Pick (Peppers he can cover TE's), a 2018 First Round and a Third. That trade is basically getting two first round picks for OBJ. While in comparison the Steelers got a 3rd and a 5th for Antonio. We all know deep down OBJ did not want to sit through a rebuild, he thought we would be able to turn it around much quicker which is probably why he signed the extension. David Gettleman did right by his star WR and sent him to a city where he would be happy and would get to contend sooner rather than later. Our running game is going to be really fun to watch at least. Also I think our 2020 FA haul is going to mitigate the loss somewhat. I'm also of the mindset even if we do Trade for Rosen and Haskins, they are going to ride the bench until Eli retires. So we can secure another top ten pick, and grab Jerry Jeudy/Laviska Shenault Jr./Tarik Black in 2020. 2020 is a loaded WR draft (not saying any will be good as OBJ, but they look like they can all be special from to preliminary work on them). I could see Gettleman spending decently on the front 7 in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Yea I haven't seen any reports about better offers being turned down. Got a source there Kip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.