Rich7sena Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, NYRaider said: Allen really struggled using his hands and winning inside. He won almost exclusively to the outside in college. According to PFF Allen ranked 9th in outside pressures, 58th in inside pressures, and 104th in bull rush pressures. If he can't consistently win inside or with bull rushes against college OT how is he going to do it in the NFL? Are those those rankings based on grade or amount? If they are based on amount, they mean almost nothing considering Allen, compared to other rush players, didn't rush the passer very much at Kentucky. When he did, I saw everything I want to see out of an elite pass rusher. And again, I didn't see what you saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madleg81 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I think people are obsessing with the idea of us needing a great outside pass rusher rather than getting a serviceable veteran or someone solid but is good against the run w/some rush ability....guys with a great first step like a von miller or dwight freeny are an exception but in today's schemes having an interior force that can disrupt the pocket and timing seems to have a greater impact. 7 step drop back QB's are not as common, plus making a QB have to scramble left or right rather than step into a pass eliminates half the field. Guys are getting rid of the ball much faster today and if you make teams go East to West, both running and passing, it reduces the chances of long runs or big plays down the field. I think that's why the Aaron Donalds, JJ Watts and even the Fletcher Coxs are more sought out.....not one elite interior DL is available on the market outside of Suh but he's not what he once was but there are still plenty of outside edge rushers sitting around still. DT used to be something you could grab rounds 4-6 and get away with having big bodies that develop, but now the ones that can not just demand double teams but actually beat them as well are far more valuable today. Give me Q Williams or Gary all day over a Allen, Bosa, Sweat or anyone else in the top 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Madleg81 said: I think people are obsessing with the idea of us needing a great outside pass rusher rather than getting a serviceable veteran or someone solid but is good against the run w/some rush ability.... 1 The Raiders didn't have even this last year and probably still don't have it. Having a pass rusher is still huge. Although offenses are moving fast, plays, themselves, have the potential to last longer because of the mobility a lot of these modern quarterbacks have. Pass rush, both interior and on the edge, is still hugely important. Further, I wouldn't prioritize interior against edge when it comes to the Raiders. The Raiders have two promising interior pass rushers and the team needs to address actual needs. I'm all about BPA within reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: Are those those rankings based on grade or amount? If they are based on amount, they mean almost nothing considering Allen, compared to other rush players, didn't rush the passer very much at Kentucky. When he did, I saw everything I want to see out of an elite pass rusher. And again, I didn't see what you saw. So you have a better eye watching tape then PFF who literally watches and charts every single play? Alrighty then. It was based on grade btw so as I said before, Allen doesn't convert speed to power often and is a one trick pony when rushing the passer, he beats guys with speed around the corner. His lack of hand usage has been well documented and is an even bigger concern after seeing how small his hands were at the combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madleg81 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Rich7sena said: The Raiders didn't have even this last year and probably still don't have it. Having a pass rusher is still huge. Although offenses are moving fast, plays, themselves, have the potential to last longer because of the mobility a lot of these modern quarterbacks have. Pass rush, both interior and on the edge, is still hugely important. Further, I wouldn't prioritize interior against edge when it comes to the Raiders. The Raiders have two promising interior pass rushers and the team needs to address actual needs. I'm all about BPA within reason. A great talent whether inside or out can elevate others play....much like a great pass rush can help a secondary. So all I was really saying is that there is so much attention about who our DE's are/aren't that we just need to get the best D lineman period.....a dominant interior DL can make a an average/solid pass rusher become even more effective. When a QB has to break the pocket, the pressure will force him into a defender, rather than an outside edge rusher having to beat his man on the edge and then hunt the QB down into the pocket who can slip away if there is no push up the middle. Easier to get a guy running backwards & sideways than a guy who can take off straight away. Plus my other point about an interior rush is when a QB can't step into his throws or has to break away to his left or right, not only is his timing off, not many QBs throw well on the run and the field also becomes cut in half. When Justin Houston went off for 20 sacks, they had Dontari Poe....even when Von Miller went ham during their Super Bowl run, they had a very strong interior line. Maurice Hurst is definitely a talent but we don't know his long term medical condition, and PJ Williams looks more like a solid rotational piece than a full time starter. Rams had Donald and Brockers but stil added Suh....I just don't see the edge rushers worth a top 5 pick outside Bosa but it's definitely something we should address with one of our other 2 first round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 29 minutes ago, NYRaider said: So you have a better eye watching tape then PFF who literally watches and charts every single play? Alrighty then. It was based on grade btw so as I said before, Allen doesn't convert speed to power often and is a one trick pony when rushing the passer, he beats guys with speed around the corner. His lack of hand usage has been well documented and is an even bigger concern after seeing how small his hands were at the combine. Josh Allen has PFF's highest pass rushing grade, soooooo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: Josh Allen has PFF's highest pass rushing grade, soooooo... Almost exclusively based on beating guys to the outside with speed. He graded out very poorly in terms of bull rush and inside rushing. Doesn't have pop in his hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich7sena Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Almost exclusively based on beating guys to the outside with speed. He graded out very poorly in terms of bull rush and inside rushing. Doesn't have pop in his hands. I think you better check those pass rush rankings again... How could Allen rate as PFF's best pass rusher if he didn't rank 1st in any category and ranked outside the top 50 and top 100 in two of the three categories? I'll help you out: those rankings are the amount of pressures, not his rank for each type of pressure. Otherwise, there is no way he ranks out as their top pass rusher. Plus, winning predominantly outside does not mean he doesn't use his hands or doesn't have pop in his hands. Most outside wins in the NFL include hand/arm use. It's much more concerning when a guy simply dips his shoulder under a tackle as his main mode of getting to the QB. That was my concern with Derek Barnett when he was coming out and Jachai Polite this year--tackles in the NFL (outside of Brandon Parker) rarely, if ever, get beat this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Remember Anthony Barr had 41.5 TFL and 23.5 sacks in 2 years at edge in college. He has 14.0 sacks in 5 NFL seasons. Danielle Hunter had 21.0 TFL and 4.5 sacks in 3 years at edge in college. He had 14.5 sacks last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, Rich7sena said: I think you better check those pass rush rankings again... How could Allen rate as PFF's best pass rusher if he didn't rank 1st in any category and ranked outside the top 50 and top 100 in two of the three categories? I'll help you out: those rankings are the amount of pressures, not his rank for each type of pressure. Otherwise, there is no way he ranks out as their top pass rusher. Plus, winning predominantly outside does not mean he doesn't use his hands or doesn't have pop in his hands. Most outside wins in the NFL include hand/arm use. It's much more concerning when a guy simply dips his shoulder under a tackle as his main mode of getting to the QB. That was my concern with Derek Barnett when he was coming out and Jachai Polite this year--tackles in the NFL (outside of Brandon Parker) rarely, if ever, get beat this way. 2 2 He ranked 58th in snaps/inside pressure 104th in snaps/bull rush pressure 27th in run stop % From the Draft Network guys Marino Hand Technique - Showcases the ability to clear his pads and soften the outside rush angle. Can stand to be more assertive and violent with his hands. Still room for growth in terms of timing and placement with his hand combating. Run Defense - Not an ideal candidate to regularly be tasked with setting the edge against offensive tackles and has noticeably better success vs tight ends. Eyes are often in the backfield, causing his pad level to rise and the lack of leverage is detrimental to his ability to maintain his fit. Has most of his success defending the run slashing gaps and filtering through contact. Offers outstanding range to close down distances and make plays outside the numbers. Pass Rush - Blend of burst, length and flexibility leads to regular success attacking the outside edge track. Vertical push puts major stress on the offensive tackles ability to reach his set points and keep pace. Does well to alter his stride lengths and use his feet to most effectively rush. More counters, better speed to power conversion and developing an inside move would take his already outstanding ability to the next level. Crabbs Hand Technique/Length – Placement in the run game is effective and allows for uprooting defenders with powerful upper body and angular attacks of the opponent's leverage. Could afford to produce a bit more separation after landing a blow to ensure a clean avenue to scrape. Pass Rush Counters – Speed rush, forearm sweep, shallow rip are most predominantly used counters. Wins effectively with speed off the edge. Can still stand to improve the timing of his hand counter and add more violence to fully clear the hands. Will win reps in the NFL based off his speed/flexibility. Ledyard Rush Moves - Among the biggest areas of improvement for him. Used his hands much better in 2018 than he did a year ago. Two-handed swats to win the edge became a go-to move. Does a good job of reducing his surface area while cornering, using his inside arm to keep his frame relatively clean around the edge. Flashed push-pull throughout the year that gave him several 1v1 wins. Long arm and cross chop could be deadly moves for him if he eventually adds them. Doesn't convert speed-to-power very often, but I wouldn't either with his other traits. Counters - Will run relentlessly at the edge instead of taking an inside path to the quarterback. Has to do a better job at converting speed-to-counter and winning back inside against oversets. Florida's Jawaan Taylor overset on him all day, and Allen was too slow to work counter moves against him. Has all the tools with his burst and bend to force tackles deep in their set points and exploit the inside track to the quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I like Allen as a prospect, I just think that he's a much better fit as a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Raiders have Mauro listed as DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksavage1 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 4 hours ago, NYRaider said: Remember Anthony Barr had 41.5 TFL and 23.5 sacks in 2 years at edge in college. He has 14.0 sacks in 5 NFL seasons. Danielle Hunter had 21.0 TFL and 4.5 sacks in 3 years at edge in college. He had 14.5 sacks last season. Anthony Barr plays Inside LB for the Vikings in a 4-3 scheme. Im sure if he played edge his sack numbers would be higher. Be sure to do your research before making a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raidr4life Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 8 hours ago, BayRaider said: Polite at 24 and Allen in the 2nd would be nice. Mauro and Key as rotation guys. Or Allen and Mauro as Run Downs and Key ans Polite on Pass Downs. Key is going to start, his last 6 games was like Macks 1st season started getting pressure and so close to getting sacks he started to develop down the stretch, and no I'm not saying he's Mack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Just now, raidr4life said: Key is going to start, his last 6 games was like Macks 1st season started getting pressure and so close to getting sacks he started to develop down the stretch, and no I'm not saying he's Mack! Key is not even Mario Edwards. More healthy though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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