Vikings Sign Josh Kline

[Cearbhall]

5 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

So how do you feel about teams that have had success after firing their coach but keeping their GM like the Rams and Falcons?

Generally, I don't care a lot about other teams but it is great for their fans that their GM took the needed measures to solve the problems they had during the tenure of the coach that couldn't get it done. I suppose I might feel a little envious of them since our GM was not able to put coaches and players into place to have that same success.

And to anyone that thinks my opinion is not objective, my opinion is based on the failure of the GM to fix the offensive line. I suppose that is somewhat subjective but I focus on results which is fairly objective. How many among us think that the results the Vikings have had on the offensive line across the last half dozen season is objectively acceptable?

[NorthCountryEvo]

2 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

First, the suggestion that the Vikings had no options available to them is kind of a defeatist attitude that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Second, if there really was nobody the team could get in free agency is no excuse for not having something better there. It has been several years now. There is no excuse. Overall, the Vikings have pretty much had the same opportunities to bring in guys that all other teams in the league has had. The offensive line has been a catastrophic failure repeatedly. It doesn't look like that will be resolved by the draft. For me, that means that Rick Spielman's time is about to run out. There were a few opportunities for trade this year (Zeitler and Osemele) that Rick missed out on. There may still be an opportunity for trades to solve the problem before the draft but without doubt that is a long shot.

See, there is some recency bias here that I think a lot of Vikings fans subscribe to, and that is that we have not made moves or spent money to upgrade the O-line. I'm not going to argue that we've been failing at upgrading the group, but over Speilman's tenure we have made many moves and acquisitions, from bigger dollar/bigger names like Remmer's, Reiff, and Boone. We have drafted guys (albeit not very high picks). We traded for Easton from the 49ers and Brad Jones from the Giants, and signed Rashod Hill off of the Jag's practice squad. We have made moves to attempt to improve the line, and have only had moderate success at best. Many people get upset because we don't do enough, but I'd say that we have made more than enough moves to improve the line, we just have not been successful with those moves. Unfortunately, in football, everything is a gamble, and you don't know what will work out or won't. That isn't me trying to say that Speilman, the scouts, and the coaches shouldn't be held accountable, but the point is that apart from maybe the Patriots, there is no team that is hitting a home run on every move made. What we do know is that beyond the O-line, we have built easily a top 10 roster if not better under Speilman. We have also seen some of his drafting towards the O-line show promise in recent years with Elflein and O'Neill. That hopefully will continue as a trend, and we really need to hope it does continue because we just don't have the money to spend in free agency to go after other players... and keep in mind, we don't have the money because we have such a good roster at almost every other position.

I get that people want the line better and they want it better now, but the truth of the matter is that going out and signing one "big name" free agent probably wouldn't fix everything. Continued development of our young guys along with hopefully better coaching and scheme will though. You brought up both Zeitler and Osemele. These are both guys that I would love to have on the team, and would absolutely be upgrades, but there is a reason why they were traded, and a reason why we probably were not in the trade market for them: Money. Both of them have contracts that would have required us to not re-sign Barr and possibly make other roster moves in addition. The argument is valid that maybe it would have been worth it, but that's not the point. The point is, players as good as Osemele and Zeitler can be had in a trade for the draft capital they were traded for because their original team is looking to offload their contract, and with us already being strapped for cap, it's not reasonable to think we can afford those types of guys right now. Same with the FA market this year: You have Saffold and Paradis, both who would have been upgrades, but both who arguably commanded salaries beyond what their play deserved. We are in desperation mode with our line, but paying out big contracts for average-ish to maybe above average lineman would be a move that could scuttle the whole team. There, again, is a reason why players are available in free agency: either they weren't good enough to stay with their current team, or the money they would command would not meet their ability.

Do I think Kline is the answer for us? No, of course not. What he offers is starting experience, familiarity and success with our new scheme, and he has played at least decent in the very recent past. He can be seen as a "budget" stop gap in the near term (and I say budget even though he still seems overpaid), with a little bit of potential for the future based on his past performance. He offers us the ability to draft with a bit more flexibility, but he isn't good enough to prevent us from still looking for an upgrade. I, for one, am glad that we didn't go out and spend silly money on one of the other FA o-lineman because i don't think the delta between his possible ceiling is that far off from the possible floor of what was out there.

[vikestyle]

3 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Generally, I don't care a lot about other teams but it is great for their fans that their GM took the needed measures to solve the problems they had during the tenure of the coach that couldn't get it done. I suppose I might feel a little envious of them since our GM was not able to put coaches and players into place to have that same success.

And to anyone that thinks my opinion is not objective, my opinion is based on the failure of the GM to fix the offensive line. I suppose that is somewhat subjective but I focus on results which is fairly objective. How many among us think that the results the Vikings have had on the offensive line across the last half dozen season is objectively acceptable?

It's not acceptable, but I don't think a GM acts completely on his own either. The coach definitely has input on how he wants the team structured so that he can have success. Zimmer prefers to build his team around a strong defense. If he were an offensive coach, maybe we would have seen a different approach.

Once again, I don't think either should be completely to blame for the spot we're in, they should share that blame. You have a strong opinion about Spielman and that's just fine.

[Cearbhall]

3 minutes ago, NorthCountryEvo said:

See, there is some recency bias here that I think a lot of Vikings fans subscribe to, and that is that we have not made moves or spent money to upgrade the O-line. I'm not going to argue that we've been failing at upgrading the group

This is a good point. It is also why I base my thoughts on results over several years rather than on any particular move of lack of move. The results just haven't been there and there has been more than adequate time for the results to be improved. In all that time, things look even worse today than they did back then. There has been no signs of improvement.

[Cearbhall]

10 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

Once again, I don't think either should be completely to blame for the spot we're in, they should share that blame. You have a strong opinion about Spielman and that's just fine.

Yeah, I like coach Zimmer so I might focus more on the GM. Sadly, I realize that getting a new GM most likely means that GM bringing in his own coach and that coach bringing in his own QB. That is just the way that it normally works. This reality is why largely why I have held off on calling for Speilman's head so I 100% understand Mr @swede700's desire to wait for things to play out with current QB before starting the rebuild. Personally, I don't see a realistic possibility of things working out with the current QB without a huge focus being places on the offensive line so I would rather get on with it.

The timeline I see is that the new GM will keep coach Zimmer through the '19 season and then hire his guy as head coach. Then that guy will have Cousins through '20 to competently hold the QB position while he looks for his QB that will be starting in '21. Pushing that timeline back will give the current setup more chance of success but it also delays getting pieces in place for the next setup. Not seeing it working with the current arrangement I just don't see delaying as the best move. I do understand those that want to see if Cousins can get it done this year or next year. I simply do not see odds of championship success for Cousins this year as anything much above zero given the state of the offensive line. He is a QB that requires getting that right super important. Josh Kline along with Danny Isidora at guard inspires zero confidence in me that this is a year that the team will be making a championship run. Pat Elflein as the guy they are counting on at center doesn't help matters either.

[boombap]

6 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

I don't know about how much more the Vikings would have needed to pay Saffold to lure him nor do I think whether Saffold was an option for the Vikings matters much.

First, the suggestion that the Vikings had no options available to them is kind of a defeatist attitude that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Second, if there really was nobody the team could get in free agency is no excuse for not having something better there. It has been several years now. There is no excuse. Overall, the Vikings have pretty much had the same opportunities to bring in guys that all other teams in the league has had. The offensive line has been a catastrophic failure repeatedly. It doesn't look like that will be resolved by the draft. For me, that means that Rick Spielman's time is about to run out. There were a few opportunities for trade this year (Zeitler and Osemele) that Rick missed out on. There may still be an opportunity for trades to solve the problem before the draft but without doubt that is a long shot.

I don't know in which industry you all work but I dare say there are very few private sector for-profit industries where the same catastrophic failure can happen that many times without it resulting in heads rolling. Wilf has been very patient and there are no signs of improvement. Most people running a business wouldn't allow the same catastrophic failure that many times before making a change. By this point, there is no reason to make excuses as it doesn't matter. The results are what they are and those results point to a need to make a change.

This is the situation Rick Spielman has put himself in. He is down to his last longshot because of his previous mistakes. I sure hope he isn't trying to make excuses. It blows my mind to see excuses still being made. Do people no longer have standards? How many more years is reasonable to wait? How many more excuses should be allowed?  Those answers may be different from person to person. For me, he is to the point where no more years and no more excuses should be allowed. I feel that I have been exceedingly patient already. Probably more patient than I should have been. More effective leaders would have pulled the trigger earlier.

I think you might be sadly mistaken if you think Rick is going to get fired soon. I would not be shocked to see him sign a multi year extension in the not too distant future. The Wilfs and there desire to run the Vikings like a family most likely extends to staff and front office personal as well.

While the attempts to fix the line have largely failed its not that they haven't tried. Many free agents and draft picks have been spent there over the past 5 years. They've had some bad injury luck and a number of scouting errors but they have been trying to put the pieces together. 

Besides that you can't ignore the fact that outside of oline you have a roster that most GMs would die for. And they have done that through the draft primarily (very few high draft picks as well). The culture they have built is astounding compared to the era of a decade ago.

I have faith and feel that Kubiak and Dennison will help turn the oline around. Then look out.

[Dolmonite26]

The overtly obtuse nature of this analysis is becoming tiresome. Provide some real substance to your argument that extents beyond, "whelp it has sucked for X years so, move on" and it might be worth the effort to read.  As of right now we're approaching broken record, plug my eardrums territory

[SemperFeist]

*Morgan Freeman’s narrator voice*

So, the Vikings are, in fact, not paying Josh Kline more than J.R. Sweezy.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, boombap said:

Besides that you can't ignore the fact that outside of oline you have a roster that most GMs would die for. And they have done that through the draft primarily (very few high draft picks as well). The culture they have built is astounding compared to the era of a decade ago.

I have faith and feel that Kubiak and Dennison will help turn the oline around. Then look out.

I would also invite you to acknowledge that this roster that GM's would die for has yet to win a championship.  In fact, with the poor offensive line play and corresponding quarterback play, the team regressed in 2018 to being middle of the pack.

I do hope that you are correct about Kubiak and Dennison.  I would be more hopeful with better than mediocre at best talent along the offensive line.

[swede700]

32 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

I would also invite you to acknowledge that this roster that GM's would die for has yet to win a championship.  In fact, with the poor offensive line play and corresponding quarterback play, the team regressed in 2018 to being middle of the pack.

I do hope that you are correct about Kubiak and Dennison.  I would be more hopeful with better than mediocre at best talent along the offensive line.

They made the NFC Championship Game with Case Keenum at QB, who matched his entire previous career win total in 1 season with the Vikings.  That's all that really needs to be said.  Sure, they haven't won a title, but neither has 2/3 of the league since 2000.  Our time will come soon.  I know it will.  They will give you, VD and PCP the opportunity to fly to Minnesota from VA, CA and OR for the parade, because I know I'll be there when it happens.  I've already told my wife...I had told her 2 years ago if they had won the Super Bowl, we were making the drive up I-35.  

[vikingsrule]

1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

*Morgan Freeman’s narrator voice*

So, the Vikings are, in fact, not paying Josh Kline more than J.R. Sweezy.

So the Vikes basically have enough money for rookies. The roster looks thin at several spots from a depth standpoint, specifically WR and S. I was hoping to see a veteran added to each of those two spots but there may not be enough money. Wouldn't mind bringing Tom Johnson back too if DT isn't drafted eartly.

[Cearbhall]

33 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

So, the Vikings are, in fact, not paying Josh Kline more than J.R. Sweezy.

Huh? I am not sure how you are seeing this.

Sweezy's contract looks like a one year $4.968M deal with a team option to extend it another year for $4M

Kline's deal looks like $5.75M one year commitment with two team option years that average $5M each.

How does that look like we are not paying Josh Kline more than J.R. Sweezy is being paid? The only advantage is the Vikings have an extra option year.

Either I am missing something or you are missing something. If I am missing something, please tell me what that is.

 

Late add: I have no desire to get into the debate of whether Kline is worth more than Sweezy. I don't know about that. I am just mystified by the claim that Kline is not being paid more and would like clarification on that point.

 

[SemperFeist]

12 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Huh? I am not sure how you are seeing this.

Sweezy's contract looks like a one year $4.968M deal with a team option to extend it another year for $4M

Kline's deal looks like $5.75M one year commitment with two team option years that average $5M each.

How does that look like we are not paying Josh Kline more than J.R. Sweezy is being paid? The only advantage is the Vikings have an extra option year.

Either I am missing something or you are missing something. If I am missing something, please tell me what that is.

 

Late add: I have no desire to get into the debate of whether Kline is worth more than Sweezy. I don't know about that. I am just mystified by the claim that Kline is not being paid more and would like clarification on that point.

 

Using Goessling’s tweets, Kline has cap hits in 2019 and 2020 of $3.1M and $4.4M, respectively. 

Using OTC’s data, they have Sweezy with cap hits of $3.969M and $5.5M in 2019 and 2020, respectively. 

[Cearbhall]

47 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

Using Goessling’s tweets, Kline has cap hits in 2019 and 2020 of $3.1M and $4.4M, respectively. 

Using OTC’s data, they have Sweezy with cap hits of $3.969M and $5.5M in 2019 and 2020, respectively. 

Oh, I see. You are saying that the cap hits are allocated in a way that that keeps Kline's cap hits in certain years lower than how the Cardinals chose to allocate their cap hits. That doesn't say much about which is being paid more, but yeah, the cap hits are allocated in that manner. It is incorrect to say that Kline is being paid less than Sweezy.

That goes into the philosophical debate about structuring contracts to front-load/back-load contract. Until this year, the Vikings have rarely back-loaded cap hits during the Brz years. They have been doing it more this year. That was somewhat foreseeable with the Kirk Cousins contract and personally I even suggested it was advisable in a post a month or two ago. Iirc, several people disagreed on that, which is fine. It is just a different philosophy. The Vikings also kept Barr's cap hit low this year by back-loading the cap hit more than they had with contracts in previous years; it appears the team agrees with that suggestion I made on philosophy prior to free agency. They could push even harder in that direction to open more cap space this year easily still but there is no reason to do it since they missed out on some of the more expensive free agents like Sheldon Richardson. When the cap space is needed it still is available; given the relative value of each dollar of cap space continually decreasing from year to year it makes some degree of sense -- they are extracting more value out of their cap space with a philosophy tilted further towards front-loading (downside is that it does cost them flexibility later).

The distribution of cap hits allocated from year-to-year is pretty easy to change and has nothing to do with how much a player is being paid. There is a limit owing to the Deion Sanders rule the NFL added way back when, but it is still very flexible. It is easy to move around but ultimately it all needs to be accounted for under the cap at some point within two years of the player leaving the team.

So TLDR: While Josh Kline is being paid more I do agree that his cap hit this year is lower. Whether you see that as a good or bad thing depends on your philosophy on front-loading/back-loading.

[Cearbhall]

1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

Sweezy's contract looks like a one year $4.968M deal with a team option to extend it another year for $4M

Kline's deal looks like $5.75M one year commitment with two team option years that average $5M each.

A point of clarification after having looked at more details of Kline's contract. It is a one-year commitment of $7.55M if he plays all 16 games; he has guaranteed salary in '20.  This doesn't change anything with the rest of what I was saying but I wanted to correct that detail.

Another point of clarification on something mentioned by Mr @SemperFeist, it looks like he confused Goessling's mention of $4.4M in base salary in '20 as being his cap hit for '20. That is incorrect. His cap hit will be at least $6.033M if he plays all 16 games in '20 based on the base salary, the prorated portion of Kline's signing bonus, the $50k workout bonus, and the $250k in roster bonuses.

You could subtract out the roster bonuses but the deal looks even worse for the Vikings if he doesn't play those games. To keep comparisons with Sweezy apples to apples you would want to remove the $500k he has per year in roster bonuses -- a detail that makes Sweezy's contract even further look cheaper relative to Kline.

The fact remains that Kline's contract is more lucrative than Sweezy's contract. The fact also remains that how the teams chose to take the cap hits on the contracts has Sweezy's cap number lower this year while Kline's cap hit will be higher next season. A final important point is that the Vikings have an additional team option year for $5M that the Cardinals did not get as part of the Sweezy deal. That is not related to how much they are being paid, but control is worth more than a few pennies. If both guards perform very well 31 year-old Kline will be scheduled to earn $5M in '21 while 31 year-old Sweezy will have the chance to pull the free agency lever again a year earlier.