Cearbhall Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 47 minutes ago, boombap said: Saffols and his wife wanted to go to Nashville (they love the city).We would have had to massively outbid Tenn. I don't know about how much more the Vikings would have needed to pay Saffold to lure him nor do I think whether Saffold was an option for the Vikings matters much. First, the suggestion that the Vikings had no options available to them is kind of a defeatist attitude that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Second, if there really was nobody the team could get in free agency is no excuse for not having something better there. It has been several years now. There is no excuse. Overall, the Vikings have pretty much had the same opportunities to bring in guys that all other teams in the league has had. The offensive line has been a catastrophic failure repeatedly. It doesn't look like that will be resolved by the draft. For me, that means that Rick Spielman's time is about to run out. There were a few opportunities for trade this year (Zeitler and Osemele) that Rick missed out on. There may still be an opportunity for trades to solve the problem before the draft but without doubt that is a long shot. I don't know in which industry you all work but I dare say there are very few private sector for-profit industries where the same catastrophic failure can happen that many times without it resulting in heads rolling. Wilf has been very patient and there are no signs of improvement. Most people running a business wouldn't allow the same catastrophic failure that many times before making a change. By this point, there is no reason to make excuses as it doesn't matter. The results are what they are and those results point to a need to make a change. This is the situation Rick Spielman has put himself in. He is down to his last longshot because of his previous mistakes. I sure hope he isn't trying to make excuses. It blows my mind to see excuses still being made. Do people no longer have standards? How many more years is reasonable to wait? How many more excuses should be allowed? Those answers may be different from person to person. For me, he is to the point where no more years and no more excuses should be allowed. I feel that I have been exceedingly patient already. Probably more patient than I should have been. More effective leaders would have pulled the trigger earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: I don't know in which industry you all work but I dare say there are very few private sector for-profit industries where the same catastrophic failure can happen that many times without it resulting in heads rolling. See, your word choice here might be where we disagree. While everyone views it as a failure, you view the failures of the offensive line to be a catastrophic failure. I can't take it to that level of a failure, because they've managed to have okay offensive line play, as compared to the rest of the league, except for last year. Therefore, since it's not a catastrophic failure, it's not necessary for "heads to roll" outside of possibly the people doing the scouting of these offensive line players or the offensive line coaches (and, in fact, the offensive line coaches that possibly contributed to some of the failure have been let go, those like Jeff Davidson in the past and Clancy Barone most recently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Ah yes, let us all watch the last long shot of the GM that has built one of the most talented rosters top to bottom in the NFL and had the architect of an improving offensive line pass away before the season started. Ridiculous takes are normal this time of year, but damn it if it isn't annoying anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: Ah yes, let us all watch the last long shot of the GM that has built one of the most talented rosters top to bottom in the NFL and had the architect of an improving offensive line pass away before the season started. Ridiculous takes are normal this time of year, but damn it if it isn't annoying anyway. Is it really ridiculous? You might personally want to give Rick Speilman another 5, 10, 25 years (I don't know since you didn't answer that question) to show improvement in his ability to get the offensive line fixed. That is fine. But is it really ridiculous for me to think he has had enough time? At some number of years, which varies depending on the person, it becomes ridiculous to let the same person make the same mistakes that prove catastrophic to the success of the product. In my experience, that number is often times two and usually not more than three. We were already beyond three when the offensive line coach passed away. I am not going to say that it is ridiculous to continue waiting another year. I will say, however, that it is absurd to suggest it is ridiculous to move on at this point. And to be annoyed by the suggestion....really? People can evaluate for themselves what is ridiculous. It is your choice to belittle the opinion of someone else on the board like you have. Does that make you feel good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 It is ridiculous. Compare his results to the results of other GMs during his tenure. Name 10 better GMs. Assembling a defense that is top 5 year in and year out finding late round gems at the WR position drafting, developing, and keeping key defensive players building a roster that can get to the NFC championship game with a journeyman QB. All of those are good to great things that Spielman has done that have also come at he expense of other position groups. I'm not saying he's perfect, but you need to step back and look at the bigger picture. Was it the OL that kept the Vikings out of the Super Bowl in 2017? I don't think so. It hasn't been a catastrophic (your word) failure. He's not Howie Roseman or Bill Belichick. He's also not Dave Gettleman or Mike Tannenbaum. I don't know how long it is reasonable to wait. I can tell you that he hasn't put the Vikings in a position where post season success is plain old out of reach. Ever. Injuries, execution, off field baloney from players, coaching deaths all play/have played a role in team success. It's more nuanced than "Fire that guy because the offensive line isn't very good". If you are getting offended because I called your hyperbolic take ridiculous, probably time to toughen up. Sorry man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsrule Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 I will say, if Cousins flops, Spielman deserves to be fired. If a GM can't identify a QB and stability at the position it's hard to justify keeping that GM around. How many QB changes has Spielman survived? Ponder, Teddy, and Bradford were QBs MN used a first round pick on under Spielman. I get that Ponder may not be Spielmans fault completely and Teddy will always have the injury excuse (they could have kept him). Combine that much draft capital spent on the position with the fully guaranteed contract paying Cousins near $30m per year, results need to be shown at the most crucial position. I struggle to give Spielman credit for the defenses success and the OL failures. I think these have more to do with coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 16 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: It is ridiculous. Compare his results to the results of other GMs during his tenure. Name 10 better GMs. It is not ridiculous. Why don't you try and name five worse GMs that have as long of a tenure as Rick Spielman. Name 4 GMs that have had as long of a tenure that haven't been to a Super Bowl. How many of those didn't lead a team that won the Super Bowl? Of the ones the were in a Super Bowl and haven't won it, how many had a team ahead in the Super Bowl by over 20 points? So, Among GMs with as long a tenure as Rick Spielman, he has had better results than.... Mike Brown? I can't imagine why Mike Brown hasn't been fired. Oh yeah, it is because he is the owner of the team. 19 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: If you are getting offended because I called your hyperbolic take ridiculous, probably time to toughen up. Sorry man. My post is not hyperbolic and it is not ridiculous. I understand that your goal with describing it that was is to belittle me. No, I am not offended. In order to offend me you are going to have to earn my respect first. To do that, you first will have to be generally respectable. Even then, it will take some time. Belittling others is not generally a respectable trait. Sorry man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 20 minutes ago, vikingsrule said: I struggle to give Spielman credit for the defenses success and the OL failures. I think these have more to do with coaching. 👆Mainly this👆 Spielman carries his share of credit, as well as blame, but in these discussions the GM (regardless of team) always gets saddled with way more credit and blame than they deserve. While the coaching, and players themselves, receive far too little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: My post is not hyperbolic and it is not ridiculous. I understand that your goal with describing it that was is to belittle me. No, I am not offended. In order to offend me you are going to have to earn my respect first. To do that, you first will have to be generally respectable. Even then, it will take some time. Belittling others is not generally a respectable trait. Sorry man. If you think that I've broken forum rules (suggesting that I was attempting to "belittle" you), bring it up with a moderator. My claim is that your opinion on this matter is not objective and deserves to be ridiculed. Words have meanings. If you want to talk about how we disagree on this subject let's go for it. Clearly you do care about what what you perceive to be disrespect or you wouldn't spend so much time on the subject. On topic, I challenge you to go find any publication that lists Spielman outside of the top 10 in ranking GMs. Your perception of his job performance does not match reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrplChilPill Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 2 hours ago, JDBrocks said: Ah yes, let us all watch the last long shot of the GM that has built one of the most talented rosters top to bottom in the NFL and had the architect of an improving offensive line pass away before the season started. Ridiculous takes are normal this time of year, but damn it if it isn't annoying anyway. One playoff win. How is it ridiculous to question the success of the GM/team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdallr Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Everyone just chill. It is OK to disagree and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikestyle Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said: One playoff win. How is it ridiculous to question the success of the GM/team? I think the biggest disconnect between people on both sides is how much is the fault of the GM and what's the fault of the coaches. We have also had some bad injury luck on the OL and at QB. I think compelling arguments can be made for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, vikestyle said: I think the biggest disconnect between people on both sides is how much is the fault of the GM and what's the fault of the coaches. We have also had some bad injury luck on the OL and at QB. I think compelling arguments can be made for both sides. There are certainly compelling arguments that can be made. Personally, I'm not at the point where I feel a change needs to be made, because I believe that you make a change now only if you plan on rebuilding from scratch. We're not there yet. I'm tying Zimmer and Spielman together now, when one goes then it's probably time for both to go. Currently, they are in the middle of a run...when that runs ends, then it's likely time for both to go if nothing has been accomplished. Therefore, my time-frame is more at probably after the 2020 season, which is 2 full seasons from now (although I've been on the fence even now on going one year longer than that..through the 2021 season). Zimmer will be on the verge of turning 65, Everson will probably be gone and Harry, Linval, and Xavier will be on their last legs. It'll be about that time for me to see a need for change, if nothing has been accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, vikestyle said: I think the biggest disconnect between people on both sides is how much is the fault of the GM and what's the fault of the coaches. We have also had some bad injury luck on the OL and at QB. I think compelling arguments can be made for both sides. Yeah, if anyone thinks that shortcomings of coaches should not be laid at the feet of the guy responsible for putting them in place I see how there would be a disconnect. To me, it doesn't matter whether it is the players the GM brings in or the coaches the GM brings in. Either way, it is the GM's fault that the problem hasn't been resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikestyle Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: Yeah, if anyone thinks that shortcomings of coaches should not be laid at the feet of the guy responsible for putting them in place I see how there would be a disconnect. To me, it doesn't matter whether it is the players the GM brings in or the coaches the GM brings in. Either way, it is the GM's fault that the problem hasn't been resolved. So how do you feel about teams that have had success after firing their coach but keeping their GM like the Rams and Falcons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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