resilient part 2 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 On 4/5/2019 at 9:11 PM, kyle21121 said: Very fair argument. Look I honestly don’t know what to make of Tatum in some regards. He did look great most of last years playoffs as THE guy or as a co-number 1. He certainly hasn’t looked great for large portions of this year and it is perplexing. Once Hayward went to the bench this year he should have been the second guy offensively with this team. Why isn’t he? Can he not fit in on a team full of good players? Why isn’t he more of a focal point? Is it on the coaching? Is it on the other players? Could it be him who is unhappy with a reduced role and can’t get into like he did last year? I mean at the beginning of last season he seemed to fit in as that complementary piece I think part of that was he was shooting an unsuitably high % from 3 in the first half of the season. He just looks likes he’s regressed in several areas. Obviously it’s unfair to say that and judge a player on his second year like that but it is possible he is somewhere in between this player that just doesn’t seem to fit with this team right now and the future superstar many thought during last years playoffs. It is definitely not regression. Look at PG and his numbers when he had to play with Melo on OKC. Look at them now. Look at Jimmy Butler's numbers before Philly and after the trade. Look at any star players numbers that played before Lebron and with Lebron. A player's success level will always be somewhat impacted by their basketball situation. Tatum has a team of young players who want to shine, as well as one of the most ball dominant players ever. All trying to prove themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 11 hours ago, resilient part 2 said: It is definitely not regression. Look at PG and his numbers when he had to play with Melo on OKC. Look at them now. Look at Jimmy Butler's numbers before Philly and after the trade. Look at any star players numbers that played before Lebron and with Lebron. A player's success level will always be somewhat impacted by their basketball situation. Tatum has a team of young players who want to shine, as well as one of the most ball dominant players ever. All trying to prove themselves. I don’t care about counting numbers eye test and efficiency is what I’m looking at at look he shot like 49% for 2/3 of his rookie season as a 4/5 option obviously that’s just a clear regression to the mean but I mean look he really doesn’t seem to fit as like a 4th option and he’s not as good because of it. I mean just being like well this team is full of selfish ball hogs and if he was the number one option he’d be a 25ppg Guy I’m not doubting that but he’s less an integral part on a team that had title hopes than he was last season. Blame Brad Stevens blame all his teammates but he’s not as impactful to the Celtics team as he was last year as an unsustainable shooter 4/5 option and as the 1 or co-1 option like he was in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renndawg37 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Spicy P all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 12 hours ago, kyle21121 said: I don’t care about counting numbers eye test and efficiency is what I’m looking at at look he shot like 49% for 2/3 of his rookie season as a 4/5 option obviously that’s just a clear regression to the mean but I mean look he really doesn’t seem to fit as like a 4th option and he’s not as good because of it. I mean just being like well this team is full of selfish ball hogs and if he was the number one option he’d be a 25ppg Guy I’m not doubting that but he’s less an integral part on a team that had title hopes than he was last season. Blame Brad Stevens blame all his teammates but he’s not as impactful to the Celtics team as he was last year as an unsustainable shooter 4/5 option and as the 1 or co-1 option like he was in the playoffs. There are so many points or counter points to make. So I'll just say Tatum's skills/game is the same or even better (eye test) while his efficiency has "regressed" clearly because this year's team is full of "let me get mine" players. That was not the case last season. Just look at how everyone on this team is less efficient (except maybe Kyrie) Just look at how less efficient PG, K Love, Chris Bosh. Wade and so many other players are when their roles changed. Do you think they all regressed?? Flip side look at how much improved players like Oladipo became (efficiently speaking or eye test) when their roles changed. Look at PG again (Indiana -OKC with Melo-OKC without Melo.) do you really think PG was great , then regressed, then became great again? No his game/skills/shooting was always the same. But his role is what changed. There are so many more examples of this. But instead of going back and forth, I'd just rather keep with the original topic and say Tatum is the better player and has the better upside. But Pascal maybe the most underrated player in the league and is definitely not far behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amac Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Think I'd be more sold on Tatum as a superstar if he got to the line more. But til he improves it's too early to say whether his ceiling is like current Tobias Harris or something more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, amac said: Think I'd be more sold on Tatum as a superstar if he got to the line more. But til he improves it's too early to say whether his ceiling is like current Tobias Harris or something more. I am not sure what the numbers look like, but if it is based on shot attempts vs FT attempts, I would be surprised to see Tatum not being too bad at drawing fouls. Besides Curry is a Superstar and doesn't live on the line so I am not sure FT attempts means everything. Edited April 10, 2019 by resilient part 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted April 11, 2019 Author Share Posted April 11, 2019 11 hours ago, resilient part 2 said: There are so many points or counter points to make. So I'll just say Tatum's skills/game is the same or even better (eye test) while his efficiency has "regressed" clearly because this year's team is full of "let me get mine" players. That was not the case last season. Just look at how everyone on this team is less efficient (except maybe Kyrie) Just look at how less efficient PG, K Love, Chris Bosh. Wade and so many other players are when their roles changed. Do you think they all regressed?? Flip side look at how much improved players like Oladipo became (efficiently speaking or eye test) when their roles changed. Look at PG again (Indiana -OKC with Melo-OKC without Melo.) do you really think PG was great , then regressed, then became great again? No his game/skills/shooting was always the same. But his role is what changed. There are so many more examples of this. But instead of going back and forth, I'd just rather keep with the original topic and say Tatum is the better player and has the better upside. But Pascal maybe the most underrated player in the league and is definitely not far behind. Alright there is a million ways to go with this I don’t think my argument was meant for proven established players as Tatum is not however would you say that he has been better this year than last year? Any metric you want. That was my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 I mean Siakam has huge upside too. We can’t just look at his age and use that to dismiss his potential. He’s basically only started playing basketball relatively speaking. He has a tonne of room to grow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 10 hours ago, kyle21121 said: Alright there is a million ways to go with this I don’t think my argument was meant for proven established players as Tatum is not however would you say that he has been better this year than last year? Any metric you want. That was my question. Simply put I will agree I was expecting more out of Tatum but I do understand how the circumstances have affected it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 10 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: I mean Siakam has huge upside too. We can’t just look at his age and use that to dismiss his potential. He’s basically only started playing basketball relatively speaking. He has a tonne of room to grow He does. I just think Tatum has more. Tatum is in the mold of that legit #1 true scorer type of guy, I don't think thats Pascals game. I think Pascal at his ceiling is an elite #2 on a Championship team which is still really high praise. I think Tatum has #1 on a Championship team type upside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resilient part 2 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Tatum's upside = Kobe Pascal's upside = Pippen There , I said it.. fire away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Spicy P for now. Future depends on how they bot develop, I think Tatum has the higher ceiling but there are no guarantees either player reaches theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renndawg37 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 On 4/11/2019 at 12:48 PM, MookieMonstah said: He does. I just think Tatum has more. Tatum is in the mold of that legit #1 true scorer type of guy, I don't think thats Pascals game. I think Pascal at his ceiling is an elite #2 on a Championship team which is still really high praise. I think Tatum has #1 on a Championship team type upside. I strongly disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieMonstah Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, renndawg37 said: I strongly disagree. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renndawg37 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said: Why? I just don't get the alpha vibe from him. He's not a very good passer and he doesn't get to the line. He is a very good player though. I shouldn't have used the word "strongly" though. Edited April 12, 2019 by renndawg37 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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