Post Sachi; What has been the biggest move for turning the browns around?

[candyman93]

Hue Jackson is the only idiot that could sink this ship.

[roger murdock]

1 hour ago, freakygeniuskid said:

Yeah, I like Haskins too and think he is a bit underrated. But if we were tossing last year's and this year's QB classes into one pot, I think (for me) the tiers would be:

Mayfield
---------------
Murray, Rosen, Darnold, Haskins
---------------
Allen, Jackson, Lock

So, while I LIKE the potential for that second tier (not giving up on Rosen, think he could go full Goff if he moved to a better situation) to become franchise QBs, it is hard to guarantee. Especially with, who knows who the coach is right now without the obvious fit that Mayfield was for Freddie's personality and system preferences?

My tiers on QBs over last 2 drafts:

 

Potential Stars

1. Mayfield - Most accurate, best decision maker, best pocket presence. Downside was age and some people dont like his attitude. Comfortable 1st overall pick.

2/3. Darnold and Haskins - Great physical tools, production. Good leadership skills. Need polish. Big time potential with clear prototypes and projections to star level players. I'd feel totally comfortable taking either top 5 if I needed a QB.

--------------

Guys with warts but interesting

4. Josh Allen - Extremely obvious pros and extremely obvious cons. Need a plan to develop him but his upside and skill were obvious.

5. Lamar Jackson - You will get 5 good years out of him as a QB. Kind of like taking a super talented rookie RB and abusing them cheap on a rookie deal. Least long term upside but an game that translates immediately because his running and deep ball, which are his major threats, are great day-1.

--------------

Guys with big question marks

6. Kyler Murray - If Baker struggled as a rookie I have a hard time seeing him go in the first 2 rounds. Poor mans Russell Wilson you hope?

7. Josh Rosen - I see little upside as a good starter. His ability to make throws when under pressure is terrible and he doesn't do anything special besides 'look' like a qb

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said:

No I agree, but with a gun to my head, I'd say adding a different HC would change our fortunes LESS than the other events listed. I'm more than happy with Kitchens as our HC and was thrilled we are keeping our Baker Whisperer in the building, but I think any solid HC could make this work with the talent that we now have.

I'm 100% all-in with Kitchens, don't get it twisted. I just feel like it was the least important facet in our turnaround. We would still be projected to win 9-10 games if we hired literally any of the other HC's that got jobs this off-season.

You aren't wrong necessarily, maybe if you remove Freddie and add someone else it would be equal or greater. It also could hurt the offense which scares me more than having OBJ, Higgins and Callaway as our 3 standard WRs. Fortunately we get to keep everything and I like Landry  but we'd still know what 75% of our best 4 WRs could do we'd be in the dark with a new head coach leading the offense. I feel like I'm still in the dark of what our defense is going to be. I could see us being a top 10 defense or a bottom 10 defense. I don't like that which is why I would rather keep Freddie and know that we should have a top 10 offense with or without Landry.

[Don Roshi]

Hiring Dorsey by some distance. Yes it's a QB driven league, but we were a lot more than a QB away from competing. We needed someone to get everyone else on the same page, from the owner down. We were not a normal team pre-Dorsey. I liked Sashi, but he would never have had the clout or respect needed to stop Haslem continuing to interfere.

Had we kept Sashi and still drafted Baker, we'd still be a mess of a franchise. There was no putting a band-aid on that.

It's not ill will towards Jimmy and Dee, but they were in over their heads and needed someone that they could trust in order for us to prosper.

Hue was going to be fired regardless. He wouldn't have been hired by Dorsey in the first place. The only one who wanted him was Haslem, going over the heads of people who knew what they were talking about. He's not going to do that anymore with Dorsey here.

[mistakey]

naming baker mayfields age as a downside was a silly A F move last year

alex mack was old as *** when we drafted him and people (me included) said his age was a downside but the reality is that he's played 10 years made the pro bowl 6 times and 3 2nd team all pros by the time he turned 33 which is retirement age for an OL.  baker could play til 38.  not to mention baker mayfield is turning 24 next week.  its literally not even an issue at all.

[mistakey]

i mean **** Brandon Weeden had a 7 year career in the NFL and he was the oldest QB ever drafted at 29 in the first round

[candyman93]

3 minutes ago, mistakey said:

naming baker mayfields age as a downside was a silly A F move last year

alex mack was old as *** when we drafted him and people (me included) said his age was a downside but the reality is that he's played 10 years made the pro bowl 6 times and 3 2nd team all pros by the time he turned 33 which is retirement age for an OL.  baker could play til 38.  not to mention baker mayfield is turning 24 next week.  its literally not even an issue at all.

That was an argument? QBs play for an eternity. Especially with the new rules.

[mistakey]

48 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

That was an argument? QBs play for an eternity. Especially with the new rules.

Yeah as to why darnold would be a better pick cause he’s 2 years younger 

[FGK]

4 hours ago, roger murdock said:

My tiers on QBs over last 2 drafts:

I legitimately can't understand how anyone watches dudes play college football and places Allen over Rosen/Murray. Like, Rosen might have less chance to be a top 5 guy (like, 2% to 1% haha), but he has WAY more likelihood of turning into one of those fringe top ten guys that can make a SB run with the right supporting cast.

But the nice thing is, we don't have to worry about it anymore. We have the best of the bunch for the foreseeable future!

[roger murdock]

1 minute ago, freakygeniuskid said:

I legitimately can't understand how anyone watches dudes play college football and places Allen over Rosen/Murray. Like, Rosen might have less chance to be a top 5 guy (like, 2% to 1% haha), but he has WAY more likelihood of turning into one of those fringe top ten guys that can make a SB run with the right supporting cast.

But the nice thing is, we don't have to worry about it anymore. We have the best of the bunch for the foreseeable future!

Allen has elite NFL skills if he figures out his weaknesses. Needs to improve mechanics and footwork. Rosen to me is a broken player. His form is already nearly perfect. The physical skills are so lacking and weak. If hes not throwing from a clean pocket in rhythm hes terrible.

Rosen was the 'super polished NFL ready guy' and Allen was the 'super raw needs 3 years to develop guy' and from day 1 Allen was already a better player.

[roger murdock]

2 hours ago, mistakey said:

naming baker mayfields age as a downside was a silly A F move last year

alex mack was old as *** when we drafted him and people (me included) said his age was a downside but the reality is that he's played 10 years made the pro bowl 6 times and 3 2nd team all pros by the time he turned 33 which is retirement age for an OL.  baker could play til 38.  not to mention baker mayfield is turning 24 next week.  its literally not even an issue at all.

As a downside I meant the common argument was 'Darnold will be better at 24 than Baker is now'. Not like the Weeden argument when people said half his career is already over.

[FGK]

2 hours ago, Don Roshi said:

Hiring Dorsey by some distance. Yes it's a QB driven league, but we were a lot more than a QB away from competing. We needed someone to get everyone else on the same page, from the owner down. We were not a normal team pre-Dorsey. I liked Sashi, but he would never have had the clout or respect needed to stop Haslem continuing to interfere.

Had we kept Sashi and still drafted Baker, we'd still be a mess of a franchise. There was no putting a band-aid on that.

It's not ill will towards Jimmy and Dee, but they were in over their heads and needed someone that they could trust in order for us to prosper.

Hue was going to be fired regardless. He wouldn't have been hired by Dorsey in the first place. The only one who wanted him was Haslem, going over the heads of people who knew what they were talking about. He's not going to do that anymore with Dorsey here.

Hard disagree. Baker is driving this reemergence. Dorsey could assemble a solid supporting cast, but with Tyrod or Allen at the helm, you think Odell wants to end up here? Baloney.

Dorsey was important, for sure. But we have no evidence that something like this isn't what the old FO was aiming for. Hell, we have numerous interviews that say this was their EXACT plan (go all in on both picks and FA in years 3-4 with a rookie QB in their competition window.)

If you give me Mayfield and the Sashi FO vs. Josh Allen and the Dorsey FO, I know which one I'm taking and it is the Baker side of the equation 10/10.

 

[FGK]

2 minutes ago, roger murdock said:

Allen has elite NFL skills if he figures out his weaknesses. Needs to improve mechanics and footwork. Rosen to me is a broken player. His form is already nearly perfect. The physical skills are so lacking and weak. If hes not throwing from a clean pocket in rhythm hes terrible.

Rosen was the 'super polished NFL ready guy' and Allen was the 'super raw needs 3 years to develop guy' and from day 1 Allen was already a better player.

Most of Allen's year one value was running the ball and bombs. Those are like the two things on a football field he is good at. Rosen was in an offense that literally made it impossible for him to show off what he is good at (rhythm, system passing, precise placement and accuracy). Put it this way, if Belichick could trade for one of these guys at equal cost, who would you think it would be? I think, in a well built team system tailored to their strengths, Rosen's realistic expectation is actually way better than Allen's.

Now, maybe Allen becomes the first QB in history to be horrible in college and great in the NFL (specifically in regards to accuracy). But even with the terrible year one, I'd still much rather gamble on Rosen.

[Kiwibrown]

Like freaky said Sachi 90% takes Baker imo he was the analytics play. 

Dont know how the rest of the draft goes. 

[FGK]

8 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Like freaky said Sachi 90% takes Baker imo he was the analytics play. 

Dont know how the rest of the draft goes. 

It's true. I'm not arguing Sashi > Dorsey. That's a purely hypothetical play. We can never know for sure. 

I'm arguing Sashi and Mayfield > Dorsey and Allen/Tyrod/whoever.