***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Endgame

[dtait93]

53 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Consider this - no one else but Peggy would have known who Steve was, it was wartime when they met, and she was away from Britain/US.   If she's going to keep a secret, it probably includes her family - to preserve the timeline as much as possible, as little contamination as possible (especially since now we know what Sharon ends up as, as icky as it is, having a SHIELD agent from the future receive info....major risk of butterfly effect there). 

It's pretty icky for sure, though.  No doubt lol.  Wonder what Time Traveller Steve must have thought when he realized he pulled an Old Boy lol.

Here’s another question, how did he get a new shield? If he didn’t mess with any past events then the 1945 Captain America kept his shield, and the Endgame Captain America’s shield was destroyed.

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Here’s another question, how did he get a new shield? If he didn’t mess with any past events then the 1945 Captain America kept his shield, and the Endgame Captain America’s shield was destroyed.

No idea there - it would only come from getting a new shield on his own.  Since he knew that Wakanda had tons of vibranium to spare and T’Challah opened Wakanda to the world post - BP, I guess that’s a possible path.  But that’s more open to guess work and uncertain for sure.  

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan

[dtait93]

11 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

No idea there - it would only come from getting a new shield on his own.  Since he knew that Wakanda had tons of vibranium to spare and T’Challah opened Wakanda to the world post - BP, I guess that’s a possible path.  But that’s more open to guess work and uncertain for sure.  

All of that would be messing with past events though. Maybe they could spin it to where it’s nothing major but butterfly effect and all...

[Broncofan]

19 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

All of that would be messing with past events though. Maybe they could spin it to where it’s nothing major but butterfly effect and all...

Not necessarily - getting a shield made on his own post-BP wouldn't be that crazy in preserving the timeline, especially if he kept it hidden.   Wakanda has Vibranium to spare, it's not like the shield was the only piece of vibranium left in the world.    All I'm saying is that post-Wakanda reveal to the world, it's only about a 6-month (?) window, but suddenly access to Wakanda is possible and thus access to the remaining pool of vibranium (and remember, Steve knows where they mine the Vibranium, albeit age 70+ it's not going to be him that's going to get it lol).   Getting more vibranium and keeping the shield hidden wouldn't create any major effects, given the MCU reveal that there's way more left in Wakanda.

Steve securing the $ / resources to getting this done under the radar, however - that's the part that's hard to conceptualize.   Either way, though, I can get behind ppl wondering on how plausible that is.   Like I said before, the Nebula/Loki results are impossible and iffy to conceptualize.  Cap/Gamora/Vision I don't have an issue with, and I think it's elegantly done.  But elegant doesn't mean it's perfect, either.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan

[NcFinest9erFan]

6 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Not necessarily - getting a shield made on his own post-BP wouldn't be that crazy in preserving the timeline, especially if he kept it hidden.   Wakanda has Vibranium to spare, it's not like the shield was the only piece of vibranium left in the world.    All I'm saying is that post-Wakanda reveal to the world, it's only about a 6-month (?) window, but suddenly access to Wakanda is possible and thus access to the remaining pool of vibranium (and remember, Steve knows where they mine the Vibranium, albeit age 70+ it's not going to get it lol).   Getting more vibranium and keeping the shield hidden wouldn't create any major effects, given the MCU reveal that there's way more left in Wakanda.

Steve securing the $ / resources to getting this done under the radar, however - that's the part that's hard to conceptualize.   Either way, though, I can get behind ppl wondering on how plausible that is.   Like I said before, the Nebula/Loki results are impossible and iffy to conceptualize.  Cap/Gamora/Vision I don't have an issue with, and I think it's elegantly done.  But elegant doesn't mean it's perfect, either.

Speaking of his shield, I thought only vibranium could do any damage to it? so what was Thano's sword made of?

[Broncofan]

Just now, NcFinest9erFan said:

Speaking of his shield, I thought only vibranium could do any damage to it? so what was Thano's sword made of?

Dunno, but re: vibranium, they said it was the strongest element in the universe.   Doesn't mean that it can't be damaged IIRC, though.  

[NcFinest9erFan]

11 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Dunno, but re: vibranium, they said it was the strongest element in the universe.   Doesn't mean that it can't be damaged IIRC, though.  

Forgot..Etri could of made him and the black order their weapons....

[INbengalfan]

29 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

All of that would be messing with past events though. Maybe they could spin it to where it’s nothing major but butterfly effect and all...

If two separate Nebula's can exist in one reality/time, I'm pretty sure the shield could too.  The one that CA took back with him is the same one that he used through the other movies.

[Broncofan]

7 minutes ago, INbengalfan said:

If two separate Nebula's can exist in one reality/time, I'm pretty sure the shield could too.  The one that CA took back with him is the same one that he used through the other movies.

Right, and as we heard T'Challah say in Infinity War - someone get this man a shield (remember Tony kept the other one).   Completely forgot about that - it's not like we'd expect Cap to go shield-less post-Civil War, especially after Wakanda's vibranium is at his disposal.     We could clearly have had more than 1 CA shield now that Wakanda was officially part of the Avengers group.  Completely forgot about that one.  

OK, that one also seems very clean given the fact Stark had Cap's shield the entire time until Endgame.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan

[dtait93]

4 minutes ago, INbengalfan said:

If two separate Nebula's can exist in one reality/time, I'm pretty sure the shield could too.  The one that CA took back with him is the same one that he used through the other movies.

Yeah 2 of anything can exist in one reality, but he would have had to somehow get a new shield. Because he can't mess with past events, the shield he used from his first movie through Endgame had to remain with his past self and it was actually destroyed in Endgame.

Also an interesting note, when he went back in time to return the stones he only had Mjolnir with him and no shield.

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, NcFinest9erFan said:

Forgot..Etri could of made him and the black order their weapons....

Right, of course.   The gauntlet might not have been the only weapon forged.   Another easy explanation.   Good call.

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Yeah 2 of anything can exist in one reality, but he would have had to somehow get a new shield. Because he can't mess with past events, the shield he used from his first movie through Endgame had to remain with his past self and it was actually destroyed in Endgame.

Also an interesting note, when he went back in time to return the stones he only had Mjolnir with him and no shield.

Keep in mind though as @INbengalfan noted, that the Wakandans definitely made him a new shield - and it's easy to see they may have commissioned a duplicate of the original.   It may not have been stars and stripes - but then it's just a paint job.  And here's the kicker - old Steve would have known where it was kept.  And with all the Wakandans dusted except Okoye, I could see him being able to secure the 2nd shield if it was already made....if he had to get raw vibranium and get it made, not so clean IMO, but I forgot about how IW went down.

I agree it's still not ironclad, but the fact Tony returned the original CA shield from Civil War means that Steve was operating without it pre and post-IW.   That doesn't mean he didn't have a 2nd vibranium shield, the events of IW almost guarantee he had one (may not have been the same paint job, but again, easy enough to fix).

[dtait93]

12 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Keep in mind though as @INbengalfan noted, that the Wakandans definitely made him a new shield - and it's easy to see they may have commissioned a duplicate of the original.   It may not have been stars and stripes - but then it's just a paint job.  And here's the kicker - old Steve would have known where it was kept.  And with all the Wakandans dusted except Okoye, I could see him being able to secure the 2nd shield if it was already made....if he had to get raw vibranium and get it made, not so clean IMO, but I forgot about how IW went down.

I agree it's still not ironclad, but the fact Tony returned the original CA shield from Civil War means that Steve was operating without it pre and post-IW.   That doesn't mean he didn't have a 2nd vibranium shield, the events of IW almost guarantee he had one (may not have been the same paint job, but again, easy enough to fix).

Yeah definitely have to use your imagination to get how he ended up with another shield. It would have been way cleaner just to give him a heroic death imo but still kinda cool how they did it (except for the whole Falcon becoming the new Cap thing, and yes I realize it happens in the comics I just think it's dumb personally).

[kingseanjohn]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Consider this - no one else but Peggy would have known who Steve was, it was wartime when they met, and she was away from Britain/US.   If she's going to keep a secret, it probably includes her family - to preserve the timeline as much as possible, as little contamination as possible (especially since now we know what Sharon ends up as, as icky as it is, having a SHIELD agent from the future receive info....major risk of butterfly effect there). 

It's pretty icky for sure, though.  No doubt lol.  Wonder what Time Traveller Steve must have thought when he realized he pulled an Old Boy lol.

Whatever it takes

[Broncofan]

11 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Yeah definitely have to use your imagination to get how he ended up with another shield. It would have been way cleaner just to give him a heroic death imo but still kinda cool how they did it (except for the whole Falcon becoming the new Cap thing, and yes I realize it happens in the comics I just think it's dumb personally).

A death would have been cleaner - but really, out of all the Avengers, Cap deserved to have a happy ending.   Tony's ending was sad, but it fulfilled his destiny, and he truly finally could rest.  Cap truly had sacrificed his entire life, his happiness, as a hero - to give him a life of happiness for his lifetime of sacrifice was a poetic ending.   And because we all knew Chris Evans wanted closure (he's said on multiple occasions he'd like closure for his version of Steve Rogers) - everyone was expecting Cap to die.   To pull this ending off instead was both a shocker...and given we knew that heroes were coming back, and stars' contracts were ending, to have that kind of surprise has to be a huge feather in the writers' & Russo's/Feige's cap.

And let's take it a step further - both Natasha and Tony have a LOT of innocent blood on their hands.  Remember that pre-Iron Man, Stark's lifetime work had inadvertently killed so many innocent lives - it led to Wanda & Pietro's birth as black hats.   It's actually very poetic that the 2 original Avengers to sacrifice themselves were Natasha and Tony - while we can say that they had done so much to balance the ledger, they had the most innocent blood on their hands.   Their sacrifice was selfless by its own right, but it has a certain balance and symmetry when we look it at that way.   On the other hand, the most noble Avenger worthy of Mjolnir besides Thor getting a happy ending for his sacrifice?  Man, I could not be more satisfied.

Re: Sam, I'd just let it play out before passing judgment.   Until this ep, I really thought Ant-man was the weakest of the Avengers.  Rudd really elevated his game on this one.  I still think he's at the bottom, but it's not like he's tiers below now.   The Russos & Feige & writers really paid him off (same with Nebula) and all those little character moments during the prior 21 films they tackled in Endgame in a huge way.   I'm willing to give Phase 4 and Sam the benefit of the doubt here given that.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Broncofan