2020 NFL Draft Thread

[Mr Raider]

1 minute ago, jimkelly02 said:

I think we signed Mariota to push Carr in camp and if he doesn’t play well during the season Mariota goes in and Carr’s done.  We try and draft someone in ‘21.  
I can’t see us, with such big holes at WR and DB, putting almost all our draft resources into drafting Tua.  I admittedly don’t like him as a prospect though.  What’s the point in 3 QBs but no WRs?  I think Carr has been put on point and given one last shot to be the guy after he’s given some WR talent to work with 

If we trade up for Tua Carr would be dealt for whatever we could get. I would imagine we could get a second from him, but our leverage would be hurt some so maybe it would be a third. 

We wouldn't roll with all three. I agree Mariota was signed right now today, to push Carr, but that doesn't mean the idea of him being the stop gap to a rookie and trading Carr isn't a scenario they are preparing for if a deal can be struck or a specific prospect falls into our laps. My point is I don't think it's decided either way. I don't think Mariota means that they are locked in to Carr this season and under no circumstances could that change. It really depends on their view of the QB prospects in the draft. 

I think the most likely scenario is Carr starts this year, Mariota pushes him, and if Carr falters he gets a shot. But if Tua somehow fell to 12 or even like 7 or 8 do I think it's possible they make a move for him and trade Carr? Absolutely. I think a deal to 3 is unlikely just because of the cost. But I also think it's possible they fall in love with Herbert or Love, heck I think they really like Hurts and he could even be in play at 19 or with a trade down (and I know a lot of people would riot, but I really really like Hurts so I wouldn't mind it). I just think the situation is fluid, and nothing has been decided. I think Mariota could be competition for Carr or he could be a stop gap for an early selection this year.

Carr starting the year is most likely. 

A QB like Herbert, Love, or Hurts being drafted early and Carr being moved and Mariota being a stop gap for a period of time is second most likely. 

A trade up for Tua is third.

And keeping Carr, Mariota, and drafting a guy in the mid rounds and keeping all three is the least likely IMO. 

[jimkelly02]

What value does Carr really have during the middle of the draft when there’s Tua, Herbert, Love, Eason, Hurts, and Frohm to draft and Winston and soon to be Cam Newton free to sign?

Only teams without a QB or future QB are Miami, NE, Jax??, SD, Carolina??.  There’s more supply then demand.  Jax might just wait and roll with Gardner and tank. NE might just tank and rebuild.  SD and Miami will draft a QB.  

I don’t see trading Carr as a valid option at this point.  Winston went from looking at $33M to having no suitors.  

Who is gonna give us anything of value for Carr.  We aren’t going to trade 2 1sts and more to draft a QB then trade Carr for a 4th.

he’s getting one year to make or break and we’ll get him the WRs to give him a fair shot.  

[jimkelly02]

5 minutes ago, Mr Raider said:

If we trade up for Tua Carr would be dealt for whatever we could get. I would imagine we could get a second from him, but our leverage would be hurt some so maybe it would be a third. 

We wouldn't roll with all three. I agree Mariota was signed right now today, to push Carr, but that doesn't mean the idea of him being the stop gap to a rookie and trading Carr isn't a scenario they are preparing for if a deal can be struck or a specific prospect falls into our laps. My point is I don't think it's decided either way. I don't think Mariota means that they are locked in to Carr this season and under no circumstances could that change. It really depends on their view of the QB prospects in the draft. 

I think the most likely scenario is Carr starts this year, Mariota pushes him, and if Carr falters he gets a shot. But if Tua somehow fell to 12 or even like 7 or 8 do I think it's possible they make a move for him and trade Carr? Absolutely. I think a deal to 3 is unlikely just because of the cost. But I also think it's possible they fall in love with Herbert or Love, heck I think they really like Hurts and he could even be in play at 19 or with a trade down (and I know a lot of people would riot, but I really really like Hurts so I wouldn't mind it). I just think the situation is fluid, and nothing has been decided. I think Mariota could be competition for Carr or he could be a stop gap for an early selection this year.

Carr starting the year is most likely. 

A QB like Herbert, Love, or Hurts being drafted early and Carr being moved and Mariota being a stop gap for a period of time is second most likely. 

A trade up for Tua is third.

And keeping Carr, Mariota, and drafting a guy in the mid rounds and keeping all three is the least likely IMO. 

Well yeah if Tua falls to 12 we’d take him just like Washington took Haskins.  But that isn’t what we were talking about.

we were talking about trading up to 3 to get Tua, basically rolling with last years WRs plus a 3rd rounder, and in doing so abandoning any chance of winning many games this year.

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, jimkelly02 said:

Well yeah if Tua falls to 12 we’d take him just like Washington took Haskins.  But that isn’t what we were talking about.

we were talking about trading up to 3 to get Tua, basically rolling with last years WRs plus a 3rd rounder, and in doing so abandoning any chance of winning many games this year.

Tua scenario aside, we also don’t know if Mayock/Gruden will fall in love with Love or Herbert at 12. We honestly have no idea how their evaluations are going to go, and as always, I’m sure they’ve studied every QB in depth. Drafting Love/Herbert at 12, dealing Carr, and starting Mariota is a realistic possibility. It’s not unrealistic at all. 
 

Is it likely? I’d say no. Carr is the likely starter. Once again though, it’s pure speculation on both sides. 

[jimkelly02]

1 minute ago, BayRaider said:

Tua scenario aside, we also don’t know if Mayock/Gruden will fall in love with Love or Herbert at 12. We honestly have no idea how their evaluations are going to go, and as always, I’m sure they’ve studied every QB in depth. Drafting Love/Herbert at 12, dealing Carr, and starting Mariota is a realistic possibility. It’s not unrealistic at all. 
 

Is it likely? I’d say no. Carr is the likely starter. Once again though, it’s pure speculation on both sides. 

Only you would do that lol.  I’m not even trying to be mean but I feel all this talk of drafting QBs is from people grasping at straws to get rid of Carr.  
I don’t want to start a fight that’s just what it seems like to me

 

[Mr Raider]

1 minute ago, jimkelly02 said:

What value does Carr really have during the middle of the draft when there’s Tua, Herbert, Love, Eason, Hurts, and Frohm to draft and Winston and soon to be Cam Newton free to sign?

Only teams without a QB or future QB are Miami, NE, Jax??, SD, Carolina??.  There’s more supply then demand.  Jax might just wait and roll with Gardner and tank. NE might just tank and rebuild.  SD and Miami will draft a QB.  

I don’t see trading Carr as a valid option at this point.  Winston went from looking at $33M to having no suitors.  

Who is gonna give us anything of value for Carr.  We aren’t going to trade 2 1sts and more to draft a QB then trade Carr for a 4th.

he’s getting one year to make or break and we’ll get him the WRs to give him a fair shot.  

Yeah, all of those teams might do that... Or they might trade for a veteran QB that has shown to be a 65%, 4000ish yard, 20+ TD, and 10 or fewer picks per year QB that can be had for a second or third round pick on a reasonable contract that they can get out of at any time. 

I don't think New England wants to go into full tank mode, I think Miami could be incredibly interested for the right price, especially if they miss out on Tua. 

The point wouldn't even really be about getting a ton of assets for Carr at that point anyway. The point would be the front office envisioning whatever guy to have elite potential, and believing he could be our long term QB of the future that gives us a better long term chance at contending for championships than Carr does. Whatever we could get for Carr would be a bonus at that point. That isn't the motivation. It's just getting what you can because he isn't in the long term plans. 

If you can draft a guy you truly believe is a franchise QB and you don't believe the guy you has is, you draft the QB of the future. Gruden isn't on the hot seat, obviously. But another season without a winning record, and then another season followed up by a rookie going through growing pains could get him there. If they like a certain guy they might want to jumpstart the process and get the growing pains out of the way this season. 

Front offices don't look at things through the view of only what makes us better this upcoming season, especially at the QB position. I don't think they have made a firm decision on the QB position before the draft because it would be foolish to do so unless you have Mahomes or Watson or someone of that caliber. They most certainly could roll with Carr this year in a make or break season, but they haven't guaranteed that yet. You keep your options open until after the draft. That's all I'm saying. And I assure you they are going over a million different scenarios on how the draft can go, and if they have a QB with a high grade and truly believe he's a franchise caliber, higher ceiling, better long term outlook than Carr and he falls into their lap, they'll consider taking him. Regardless of what they can get for Carr if anything. And I think having Mariota makes that statement make even more sense, not less. 

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, jimkelly02 said:

Only you would do that lol.  I’m not even trying to be mean but I feel all this talk of drafting QBs is from people grasping at straws to get rid of Carr.  
I don’t want to start a fight that’s just what it seems like to me

 

It’s not though. Mayock has said several times he will look to upgrade every position, every draft. If him and Gruden fall in love with a QB in their evaluations (they will certainly look at every QB, as always), they could certainly draft one and deal Carr. 
 

Carr is a Mixed-Opinion QB. Some love him and think he’s a Top 12 type of guy. And the other half think he’s below average or average. Not good, but not terrible at all. 

[MrOaktown_56]

2 hours ago, BayRaider said:

I like to weigh all scenarios in the draft (I basically do a mock a day, and post one a week). Now I’m not trying to stir up controversy here, and would like some thoughtful replies. @MrOaktown_56 is not high on Tua which is fine. Some don’t like to trade up, I’m usually one of those people. 
 

However, Pick 3 is the most consensus-likely to be traded pick possibly in draft history. Lions want out, and they have plenty of suitors. The question is, will they trade it to the Dolphins, Chargers, and or some other team?

I believe Burrow and Tua are two legit Franchise QBs and the future of the NFL, especially with Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers all retiring in the next 1-2 years. 
 

Pick 3 Trade Value - 2200 Points

Raiders Pick 12 Trade Value - 1200 Points

Raiders Pick 19 Trade Value - 875 points

Raiders Pick 91 Trade Value - 136 points

Total Value for Raiders in a Trade Package - 2212 Points

Carr has trade value. I think we could get a 2nd Round Pick from a handful of teams. Jaguars could be one with Foles contract gone and Yannick likely to be traded (Yannick doesn’t like Carr). I don’t think that organization is as high on Minshew as the Jag fans on FF lead you to believe. 
 

So you would have: 

3. QB Tua Tagovailoa

2nd Round: CB Jaylon Johnson

80. WR Michael Pittman Jr. 

81. WR KJ Hamler or any speedster that falls

It’s not that I’m trying to get rid of Carr, I literally go through dozens of scenarios a day in my mind on how to improve the team, among every position. Like a lottery ticket quick pick. I’m sure Mayock does the same, much better than me. And 19 has terrible value among the current players. 
 

Tua’s injury might scare some, which is a respectable opinion, but to me he’s gonna be a Top 5 QB in the NFL and wreck the league. 

It's bold but if the braintrust thinks it's worth the risk I'll stand by it.

[Mr Raider]

2 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

It’s not though. Mayock has said several times he will look to upgrade every position, every draft. If him and Gruden fall in love with a QB in their evaluations (they will certainly look at every QB, as always), they could certainly draft one and deal Carr. 
 

Carr is a Mixed-Opinion QB. Some love him and think he’s a Top 12 type of guy. And the other half think he’s below average or average. Not good, but not terrible at all. 

I agree. I started off by saying I have Tua as one of the best prospects of the last decade. I don't hate Carr, I'm not trying to force him off the team. I believe we can have success with him this upcoming season, but based off what I have seen of Carr I believe Tua gives us a better chance at being a consistent, long term, super bowl contending team. So under the right circumstances I would move on from Carr for Tua. 

I am not a believer in Herbert or Love to that extent. I wouldn't take either of those guys at 12. 

It's not just about finding any way to get rid of Carr, it's about entertaining the idea that we can find a way to upgrade from him, which should always be a discussion being had when you don't have a QB that's truly elite. Too many teams fall in love with average QB play because quality QB play isn't flooding the league, but I believe when you have a QB that isn't elite it's foolish to not have a discussion on drafting a guy with the potential to give you that. Even if it takes away an asset that could be used to make you a better team the upcoming season. 

Burrow and Tua are no brainers, for the right price I would trade up for either. I don't see that being realistic, so outside of either of them, the rest of the guys I would consider in this draft are guys I would try and trade down, acquire more picks, and take them. 

It has nothing really to do with Carr, its the same way I look at every position, especially the positions I consider premium positions (QB, pass rusher, LT), if you're giving me average to slightly above average play, I'm exploring ALL options to upgrade from you. Especially if I have another serviceable option behind you that could be used as a bridge for the guy I'm drafting. 

[Mr Raider]

The coaches and GM's that have already made a decision on their QB, and the long term outlook of it aren't coming out and saying they'll explore all options to upgrading every position. Do you hear Andy coming out saying that about Mahomes? Or anyone on the Texans about Watson? The Ravens with Jackson? If your GM is saying they'll look at their options to upgrading every position, especially when the question asked is about the QB position, that means they certainly haven't made a firm decision on anything long term a month before the draft (when the only realistic option of finding a long term QB of the future is in the draft). That's just how I see it. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 hour ago, Mr Raider said:

I agree. I started off by saying I have Tua as one of the best prospects of the last decade. I don't hate Carr, I'm not trying to force him off the team. I believe we can have success with him this upcoming season, but based off what I have seen of Carr I believe Tua gives us a better chance at being a consistent, long term, super bowl contending team. So under the right circumstances I would move on from Carr for Tua. 

I am not a believer in Herbert or Love to that extent. I wouldn't take either of those guys at 12. 

It's not just about finding any way to get rid of Carr, it's about entertaining the idea that we can find a way to upgrade from him, which should always be a discussion being had when you don't have a QB that's truly elite. Too many teams fall in love with average QB play because quality QB play isn't flooding the league, but I believe when you have a QB that isn't elite it's foolish to not have a discussion on drafting a guy with the potential to give you that. Even if it takes away an asset that could be used to make you a better team the upcoming season. 

Burrow and Tua are no brainers, for the right price I would trade up for either. I don't see that being realistic, so outside of either of them, the rest of the guys I would consider in this draft are guys I would try and trade down, acquire more picks, and take them. 

It has nothing really to do with Carr, its the same way I look at every position, especially the positions I consider premium positions (QB, pass rusher, LT), if you're giving me average to slightly above average play, I'm exploring ALL options to upgrade from you. Especially if I have another serviceable option behind you that could be used as a bridge for the guy I'm drafting. 

This is exactly what I have a problem with.  Do you have any idea how difficult it is to evaluate a QB's play and how their game will translate to the pros?  Calling Tua a can't miss no brainer to me is laughable.  Are you just regurgitating what you have heard on NFL network or have you spent countless hours evaluating game film?  Let's say you have do you have a trained eye enough to call a player a "can't miss prospect"? I highly doubt it.

Tua played in college with a semi pro caliber roster and that scares me.  He was throwing to two top 15 NFL Wrs in this years draft, 2 projected top 15 WRs in the 2021 draft, a 2nd round running back prospect in Harris and a D littered with 1st round talent.

How many QB's from Bama have translated into good NFL QB's in the last 25 years?  How many left handed Qb's are in the NFL right now?  How will his long term mobility be affected from his terrible hip injury?  Does this sound like a can't miss QB prospect to you or like someone who we should trade up and give up valuable draft capital for?

How many people were saying Sam Darnold or Bayker Mayfield were cant miss prospects?  What about unemployed ol' Crab legs or our now backup Maroita?  Are any of those guys an upgrade over Carr?  

Think about the risk on moving on from a QB like Carr and drafting a "can't miss prospect" like Winston. Or what if Tua turns out to be trashbinski?  Would you want to be in the Bears situation with a SB caliber D and a bum QB holding your team back because the front office made a catastrophic mistake thinking a guy was their franchise QB who turns out to be a bum.  Now they are in full panic mode as they know their window is closing to contend with their current D so they trade for another piece of castoff trash in Foles.  Carr on the Bears makes them instant playoff contenders, Foles or Trashbinski.... not so much.

My point is there is tremendous risk moving on from Carr and many heads could roll if Carr is traded to a team that has talent then he takes the leap many of us expect him to make when surrounded with talent. If that were to happen and Mayock were to draft a "can't miss" turnover machine in Winston sadly he would be gone because we would never be a playoff team with a dumpster fire QB like that.  I like Mayock and fully he believe he understand this and that is why I was 99.9 percent confidant Carr would be our QB going into this season.  

Edited March 20, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, Mr Raider said:

The coaches and GM's that have already made a decision on their QB, and the long term outlook of it aren't coming out and saying they'll explore all options to upgrading every position. Do you hear Andy coming out saying that about Mahomes? Or anyone on the Texans about Watson? The Ravens with Jackson? If your GM is saying they'll look at their options to upgrading every position, especially when the question asked is about the QB position, that means they certainly haven't made a firm decision on anything long term a month before the draft (when the only realistic option of finding a long term QB of the future is in the draft). That's just how I see it. 

Id agree with you if we were in position to Draft an elite future QB.  But I don’t think Tua is one and Love definitely isn’t one.  Now I think Tua will likely be a quality starter in the league but not an elite one.  

@BayRaider:

“Tua as one of the best prospects of the last decade”

You make everything an hyperbole.  Blacklock will be an elite DT, Tua is one of the best prospects in last 10 years?  If he’s so great why isn’t he going #1.  He isn’t even the best prospect in this class!  He’s a 6’ QB whose gotten hurt every single year since HS.  Im not saying he sucks but come on he’s not in the top 3 of prospects in the last 10 years.

[jimkelly02]

4 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

This is exactly what I have a problem with.  Do you have any idea how difficult it is to evaluate a QB's play and how their game will translate to the pros?  Calling Tua a can't miss no brainer to me is laughable.  Are you just regurgitating what you have heard on NFL network or have you spent countless hours evaluating game film?  Let's say you have do you have a trained eye enough to call a player a "can't miss prospect"? I highly doubt it.

Tua played in college with a semi pro caliber roster and that scares me.  He was throwing to two top 15 NFL Wrs in this years draft, 2 projected top 15 WRs in the 2021 draft, a 2nd round running back prospect in Harris and a D littered with 1st round talent.

How many QB's from Bama have translated into good NFL QB's in the last 25 years?  How many left handed Qb's are in the NFL right now?  How will his long term mobility be affected from his terrible hip injury?  Does this sound like a can't miss QB prospect to you?

How many people were saying Sam Darnold or Bayker Mayfield were cant miss prospects?  What about unemployed ol' Crab legs or our now backup Maroita?  Are any of those guys an upgrade over Carr?  

Think about the risk on moving on from a QB like Carr and drafting a "can't miss prospect" like Winston. Or what if Tua turns out to be trashbinski?  Would you want to be in the Bears situation with a SB caliber D and a bum QB holding your team back because the front office made a catastrophic mistake thinking a guy was their franchise QB who turns out to be a bum.  Now they are in full panic mode as they know their window is closing to contend with their current D so they trade for another piece of castoff trash in Foles.  

My point is there is tremendous risk moving on from Carr and many heads could roll if Carr is traded to a team that has talent then he takes the leap many of us expect him to make when surrounded with talent. If that were to happen and Mayock were to draft a "can't miss" turnover machine in Winston sadly he would be gone because we would never be a playoff team with a dumpster fire QB like that.  I like Mayock and fully he believe he understand this and that is why I was 99.9 percent confidant Carr would be our QB going into this season.  

Nailed it!

[MrOaktown_56]

8 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

This is exactly what I have a problem with.  Do you have any idea how difficult it is to evaluate a QB's play and how their game will translate to the pros?  Calling Tua a can't miss no brainer to me is laughable.  Are you just regurgitating what you have heard on NFL network or have you spent countless hours evaluating game film?  Let's say you have do you have a trained eye enough to call a player a "can't miss prospect"? I highly doubt it.

Tua played in college with a semi pro caliber roster and that scares me.  He was throwing to two top 15 NFL Wrs in this years draft, 2 projected top 15 WRs in the 2021 draft, a 2nd round running back prospect in Harris and a D littered with 1st round talent.

How many QB's from Bama have translated into good NFL QB's in the last 25 years?  How many left handed Qb's are in the NFL right now?  How will his long term mobility be affected from his terrible hip injury?  Does this sound like a can't miss QB prospect to you or like someone who we should trade up and give up valuable draft capital for?

How many people were saying Sam Darnold or Bayker Mayfield were cant miss prospects?  What about unemployed ol' Crab legs or our now backup Maroita?  Are any of those guys an upgrade over Carr?  

Think about the risk on moving on from a QB like Carr and drafting a "can't miss prospect" like Winston. Or what if Tua turns out to be trashbinski?  Would you want to be in the Bears situation with a SB caliber D and a bum QB holding your team back because the front office made a catastrophic mistake thinking a guy was their franchise QB who turns out to be a bum.  Now they are in full panic mode as they know their window is closing to contend with their current D so they trade for another piece of castoff trash in Foles.  Carr on the Bears makes them instant playoff contenders, Foles or Trashbinski.... not so much.

My point is there is tremendous risk moving on from Carr and many heads could roll if Carr is traded to a team that has talent then he takes the leap many of us expect him to make when surrounded with talent. If that were to happen and Mayock were to draft a "can't miss" turnover machine in Winston sadly he would be gone because we would never be a playoff team with a dumpster fire QB like that.  I like Mayock and fully he believe he understand this and that is why I was 99.9 percent confidant Carr would be our QB going into this season.  

I won't derail my thread, but there are many positions on this roster that are CLEARLY upgradeable. Qb is not one of them IMO...

[MrOaktown_56]

Watch more of Troy Pride vs Georgia... Gave up a couple of tough backshoulder catches. His technique in off man is bad, or at least shaky. But I can tell he has the HWS and fluidity to play press. He just needs to learn it and trust his technique. He can be a tremendous cornerback value in the 3rd round, but he's very much projection from what I've seen. I'd draft him but only if you have another guy who can start right away, e.g. a first rounder...