Top 10 Interior D-Linemen/DTs heading into the 2019 season

[AlexGreen#20]

54 minutes ago, Cadmus said:

Your first sentence just completely proved my point. To say there's no argument for Diggs over Adams doesn't reflect favorably on you and it highlights that you lack the ability to be objective here. I honestly don't care if someone has Adams slightly ahead of Diggs in the same tier, fine-- but you act like it's blasphemous to have Diggs ahead of Adams and that says more about YOU than anything. Diggs has been a Top 3 route runner in the NFL since 2016. It's Diggs, AB and Beckham. Then you've probably got Adams (after last season) in that next tier with Thomas and Allen--among others. 

We've had this conversation every single year since 2016. 

If you're truly looking at this objectively then please tell me where Adams has a clear lean on Diggs. Here's your moment to shine and prove me wrong. 

Here I'll help: 

1) Adam's Release Game is Top 3, Diggs is Top 5/8. 

 

 

 

 

/end list. 

 

 

He's significantly bigger and more physical, both playing the ball and at the top of routes.

He's better playing the ball vertically.

He's a much more natural fit on the boundary, though both guys are capable of playing both inside and out, typically you see a little lean towards the boundary guys.

Diggs doesn't have the same redzone presence, though that's partly because of usage. 

Diggs does a lot of things very well, but he's also not physically dominant in the way that Adams can be. Adams can beat you up at the LOS. Diggs can't. That sets the tone for a lot of plays and a lot of coverages. 

[Cadmus]

8 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

He's significantly bigger and more physical, both playing the ball and at the top of routes.

He's better playing the ball vertically.

He's a much more natural fit on the boundary, though both guys are capable of playing both inside and out, typically you see a little lean towards the boundary guys.

Diggs doesn't have the same redzone presence, though that's partly because of usage. 

Diggs does a lot of things very well, but he's also not physically dominant in the way that Adams can be. Adams can beat you up at the LOS. Diggs can't. That sets the tone for a lot of plays and a lot of coverages. 

I never said they were the exact same type of player stylistically, and pretty much everything you highlighted has been covered in the past discussions about these two. 

That being said, I can't agree that Adams plays the ball better vertically than Diggs... If anything it's the opposite. 

In terms of the redzone presence, that's not true either. Diggs had a massive endzone share last season and has been fantastic in the redzone throughout his career. Should he but be used differently/more in those situations? Yeah, but not much he can do about that. 

Just looking at the base WR skills. 

Releases- Adams 

Route Running- Diggs

Hands- Diggs 

Physicality- Adams 

Speed- Diggs 

YAC- Diggs 

Contested Catch- Diggs 

 

Most of these are just leans, there aren't necessarily massive gaps between the two in any single category. 

That being said... There's more than one way to get open and more than one way to produce. That's why Diggs can have the lean in so many categories and I still wouldn't have a single issue with anyone having Adams slotted above Diggs. 

However, to make it seem like there's a massive gap between the two players in terms of overall football talent or to have any issue with Diggs at 93 and Adams at 92 is straight up laughable. 

Diggs is (and has been for awhile) a good litmus test for people who actually watch football vs. casual fans that only watch their own team each Sunday. 

[Packerraymond]

Adams>Diggs on YAC any day of the week. Guy routinely never and I truly mean never goes down by the CB when we throw that quick screen over to him. I can recall many plays where he's breaking 3,4,5 tackles before a gang has to bring him down. I've only seen Driver be as elusive in the open field when it comes to Packers WRs, it's but he's not 5'11 190 so he doesn't get the credit he deserves there.

Diggs has him on speed, route running is a total push, Diggs has him at top of the route but the release and stem is part of the route and Adams might be tops in the NFL there. 

The big advantage Adams has on Diggs to me it football IQ, he knows exactly where to be in a scramble drill, he understands route leverage, stems, pre-snap alignments. He doesn't have the natural high end speed, he wins with his IQ a lot.

That said, these guys are both underrated to me because they aren't divas. Adams is slightly better but Diggs is like prime Randall Cobb, with an added deep game, that's a damn fine WR.

[vegas492]

Diggs.  Adams.  Thielen.  ...couple others.

All are in that "not quite top tier" of wide receivers.  Each has qualities over the others.  

I have no issue saying they are on the same tier.  

If you want to rank them?  Splitting hairs.  If you want to do it, come to a consensus on what traits are the most important, then have at it.  I believe it will be totally subjective and you can weigh those qualities to show whatever you want.

All are darned fine receivers.

And I think that we've seen the best of what Diggs and Thielen can do..and it is impressive.  I don't think Adams has hit his prime just yet.  Meaning, I think they are in the same tier today, but the next year or two could show Adams greatly improving yet...and that is a scary thing.

[MrBobGray]

Diggs reminds me more of Jennings than anyone else on the Packers in recent years.  Exceptionally dangerous and explosive at the top of his stem and out of breaks, can find the ball no matter the situation, good hands.  Sharper and more explosive compared to Jennings who was buttery smooth, but I think their game plays similarly enough.  Whether you take him or Adams depends a lot on what you want out of a receiver.  

However, Diggs being just as good a redzone receiver is a...confusing take to me.  Going off the numbers since 2015:

• Diggs - 36 of 47, 221 yards, 6.1 YPC 14 TDs (38.8%), 19 first downs, 52.7% first down
• Adams - 46 of 76, 360 yards, 7.8 YPC, 27 TDs (58.6%), 36 first downs, 78.2% first down

I mean, yeah usage is one thing, but Adams is averaging 1.7 more YPC, 20% higher TD%, and 26% higher first down percentage.  Diggs catches a higher percentage of his targets, but that's about it.  I'm not saying he isn't a good redzone weapon, he is, but Adams has been arguably the best redzone weapon in football since 2016 and I question how you can possibly give the lean to Diggs here.  Adams is bigger, better off the release, and can track the ball just as well.  Diggs is nasty off his break but has always struggled when people get their hands on him, which is tough to avoid in the redzone. I don't see where this isn't Adams all the way.

 

[CWood21]

On 7/15/2019 at 9:20 PM, AlexGreen#20 said:

People out here acting like Brandon Williams isn't twice the player Harrison is at this point. SMDH

Clark is a borderline top-10 guy. Bad list, but I actually think they dropped Clark in about right. 

Only one I really had issues with was Snacks.

[Argus]

Only in a Packers forum can you go from Top 10 DL thread and morph it into a division wr comparison.

[SSG]

 

17 hours ago, Cadmus said:

I hate how some posters on here truly can't put down the Green and Gold goggles at times... 

Other teams have really good players...

It's okay. 

We're all okay. 

Adams is nothing short of fantastic, Diggs is also fantastic. 

Thielen is not as good as everyone thinks he is right now, but still a fine/ fringe Top 15 WR. 

What's it have anything to do with Green and Gold glasses?  I'd like to hear the argument for Diggs.  There was a MASSIVE gap in production this last year, Adams first shot at going into the season as a #1 WR.  Adams has outproduced Diggs in every year of his career but 1.  Since Diggs has been in the league, Adams has averaged more yards per game, substantially more TDs per game and more yards per catch.  

And before we start blaming last year's Viking OC for the huge gap in production between Thielen and Diggs lets not forget he didn't even make it through the season.  Thielen has out produced Diggs in each of the last 3 seasons, blaming an OC who didn't even make it through an entire season for that is misinformed.  Thielen has been better and susbtantially more productive in the same damn offense (25 more catches and 850 more yards over the last 3 years).

 

 

[MrBobGray]

3 minutes ago, SSG said:

 

What's it have anything to do with Green and Gold glasses?  I'd like to hear the argument for Diggs.  There was a MASSIVE gap in production this last year, Adams first shot at going into the season as a #1 WR.  Adams has outproduced Diggs in every year of his career but 1.  Since Diggs has been in the league, Adams has averaged more yards per game, substantially more TDs per game and more yards per catch.  

And before we start blaming last year's Viking OC for the huge gap in production between Thielen and Diggs lets not forget he didn't even make it through the season.  Thielen has out produced Diggs in each of the last 3 seasons, blaming an OC who didn't even make it through an entire season for that is misinformed.  Thielen has been better and susbtantially more productive in the same damn offense (25 more catches and 850 more yards over the last 3 years).

 

 

Diggs is a terrible fit for that team at the moment. They don't have the OL to allow a lot of down field or long developing routes and he's a terrible run blocker when they want to run the ball outside to avoid all the DL coming unblocked up the middle. Diggs gets maybe 10-15 snaps a game where he actually gets to do what he does best. 

Now some of that is the inherent weakness in that type of receiver: the further down the field you excel the fewer snaps per game targeting your strength you'll get just due to the nature of the game. You have to release off the line on every snap in the passing game, but you only have to run a sharp post - corner occasionally. Diggs can do other things, but he's not special at them. 

But if Diggs played in an offense that more regularly and effectively targeted the intermediate / deep game, his numbers would be better. 

[Cadmus]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

Diggs reminds me more of Jennings than anyone else on the Packers in recent years.  Exceptionally dangerous and explosive at the top of his stem and out of breaks, can find the ball no matter the situation, good hands.  Sharper and more explosive compared to Jennings who was buttery smooth, but I think their game plays similarly enough.  Whether you take him or Adams depends a lot on what you want out of a receiver.  

However, Diggs being just as good a redzone receiver is a...confusing take to me.  Going off the numbers since 2015:

• Diggs - 36 of 47, 221 yards, 6.1 YPC 14 TDs (38.8%), 19 first downs, 52.7% first down
• Adams - 46 of 76, 360 yards, 7.8 YPC, 27 TDs (58.6%), 36 first downs, 78.2% first down

I mean, yeah usage is one thing, but Adams is averaging 1.7 more YPC, 20% higher TD%, and 26% higher first down percentage.  Diggs catches a higher percentage of his targets, but that's about it.  I'm not saying he isn't a good redzone weapon, he is, but Adams has been arguably the best redzone weapon in football since 2016 and I question how you can possibly give the lean to Diggs here.  Adams is bigger, better off the release, and can track the ball just as well.  Diggs is nasty off his break but has always struggled when people get their hands on him, which is tough to avoid in the redzone. I don't see where this isn't Adams all the way.

 

AG mentioned redzone presence and I countered that Diggs had a massive endzone target share (which is different from redzone share) last season (if Adams is allowed to make strides in 2018, then so is Diggs). However, we both agree that a huge thing holding Diggs back in terms of RZ production has been usage. 

Not really much of an argument here, Adams was #1 in RZ share in 2018 and Diggs was #14--- that's a massive gap. However, 12/18 RZ targets for Diggs were EZ targets whereas 14/31 RZ targets for Adams were EZ targets, which will have a MASSIVE impact on yards and first down rate. 

Diggs possesses better hands and has always been better player than Adams in contested catch situations. To say that Diggs redzone presence is underrated isn't some far fetched idea, and at no point did I say that Diggs has a clear lean on Adams in the RZ because that isn't true.

 

 

[Cadmus]

25 minutes ago, SSG said:

 

What's it have anything to do with Green and Gold glasses?  I'd like to hear the argument for Diggs.  There was a MASSIVE gap in production this last year, Adams first shot at going into the season as a #1 WR.  Adams has outproduced Diggs in every year of his career but 1.  Since Diggs has been in the league, Adams has averaged more yards per game, substantially more TDs per game and more yards per catch.  

And before we start blaming last year's Viking OC for the huge gap in production between Thielen and Diggs lets not forget he didn't even make it through the season.  Thielen has out produced Diggs in each of the last 3 seasons, blaming an OC who didn't even make it through an entire season for that is misinformed.  Thielen has been better and susbtantially more productive in the same damn offense (25 more catches and 850 more yards over the last 3 years).

 

 

This one does not deserve a response to be completely honest. Yikes.

(You already got an argument for Diggs a few posts up by the way)

There's a difference between counting stats and actual football talent, which is why I already referred to Diggs as a litmus test. However, since you have displayed quite the affinity for counting stats why don't you take a peek at 1) Diggs aDOT 2) The number of targets Diggs had when Stefanski took over as OC. Now, Are OC's set up to succeed when they take over in-season, absolutely not, but it probably isn't a bad thing for the Vikings that Stefanski seems to understand who their most talented WR is. 

 

 

[Cadmus]

27 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

Diggs is a terrible fit for that team at the moment. They don't have the OL to allow a lot of down field or long developing routes and he's a terrible run blocker when they want to run the ball outside to avoid all the DL coming unblocked up the middle. Diggs gets maybe 10-15 snaps a game where he actually gets to do what he does best. 

Now some of that is the inherent weakness in that type of receiver: the further down the field you excel the fewer snaps per game targeting your strength you'll get just due to the nature of the game. You have to release off the line on every snap in the passing game, but you only have to run a sharp post - corner occasionally. Diggs can do other things, but he's not special at them. 

But if Diggs played in an offense that more regularly and effectively targeted the intermediate / deep game, his numbers would be better. 

If I get 16 games of Diggs with Mahomes or 16 games of Adams with Mahomes.... I take Diggs every single time. 

You're spot on here with regard to how badly that offense floundered and misused him. 

[Cadmus]

6 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Diggs.  Adams.  Thielen.  ...couple others.

All are in that "not quite top tier" of wide receivers.  Each has qualities over the others.  

I have no issue saying they are on the same tier.  

If you want to rank them?  Splitting hairs.  If you want to do it, come to a consensus on what traits are the most important, then have at it.  I believe it will be totally subjective and you can weigh those qualities to show whatever you want.

All are darned fine receivers.

And I think that we've seen the best of what Diggs and Thielen can do..and it is impressive.  I don't think Adams has hit his prime just yet.  Meaning, I think they are in the same tier today, but the next year or two could show Adams greatly improving yet...and that is a scary thing.

Thielen is capped. 

Can't say that I agree Diggs is at his ceiling just because he's been so poorly utilized. He's also a year younger than Adams. 

Good to see you Vegas, been awhile. 

[MrBobGray]

18 minutes ago, Cadmus said:

AG mentioned redzone presence and I countered that Diggs had a massive endzone target share (which is different from redzone share) last season (if Adams is allowed to make strides in 2018, then so is Diggs). However, we both agree that a huge thing holding Diggs back in terms of RZ production has been usage. 

Not really much of an argument here, Adams was #1 in RZ share in 2018 and Diggs was #14--- that's a massive gap. However, 12/18 RZ targets for Diggs were EZ targets whereas 14/31 RZ targets for Adams were EZ targets, which will have a MASSIVE impact on yards and first down rate. 

Diggs possesses better hands and has always been better player than Adams in contested catch situations. To say that Diggs redzone presence is underrated isn't some far fetched idea, and at no point did I say that Diggs has a clear lean on Adams in the RZ because that isn't true.

 

 

I read that first sentence at least five times before actually reading "endzone" instead of "redzone".  In that case, can't disagree with you on anything here.  I think their hands are not significantly different, but I'll grant you that in terms of what's valuable in the redzone I'd lean Diggs as well.  

I can't really disagree with anything here to the degree that it would be more than pedantic nit-picking, which I'm not into.  I think Adams still has a redzone lean, but I certainly agree Diggs should get more targets and is a weapon in there as well.  If you can't keep him jammed up at the line his body control and suddenness are easy money in the short area stuff.

[Cadmus]

8 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Adams>Diggs on YAC any day of the week. Guy routinely never and I truly mean never goes down by the CB when we throw that quick screen over to him. I can recall many plays where he's breaking 3,4,5 tackles before a gang has to bring him down. I've only seen Driver be as elusive in the open field when it comes to Packers WRs, it's but he's not 5'11 190 so he doesn't get the credit he deserves there.

Diggs has him on speed, route running is a total push, Diggs has him at top of the route but the release and stem is part of the route and Adams might be tops in the NFL there. 

The big advantage Adams has on Diggs to me it football IQ, he knows exactly where to be in a scramble drill, he understands route leverage, stems, pre-snap alignments. He doesn't have the natural high end speed, he wins with his IQ a lot.

That said, these guys are both underrated to me because they aren't divas. Adams is slightly better but Diggs is like prime Randall Cobb, with an added deep game, that's a damn fine WR.

Respect your opinion, but I don't agree on this one. 

A major problem here is that they don't get YAC (yards after the catch) in the same way---it's similar to how Derrick Henry gains yards after contact vs Kenyan Drake-- or that general idea. 

Diggs has the speed to beat angles with the ball in his hands and he was fantastic specialist at Maryland. I also think Diggs can string together moves and make more things happen in open space than Adams can. Does that mean Adams can't create after the catch? Absolutely not, they're very close just in different tiers in my eyes. 

Again, it's not a massive gap... for me you'd be saying Diggs is Top 5 while you're saying Adams is Top 8 (among complete WRs--not C. Patterson types). 

 

I don't see route running as something that is even controversial in terms of Diggs being the better player. Again, fully respect your opinion on this one, but everything beyond the release Diggs > Adams, including the stem of the route. I already stated that I think as a route runner-- Diggs is Top 3 and Adams is Top 8 (which is a healthy jump from where he was this time last year). Not a massive gap between the two, but that's the point. 

 

I don't see the Diggs to Cobb comparison either. That feels like a playerprofiler comparison gone horribly wrong. Diggs is closer to Harrison (w/ a touch of a few other players) than any other modern NFL player. 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Cadmus