Phillip Rivers Overrated?

[Xenos]

13 hours ago, Thelonebillsfan said:

God that 2010 team was just so fluky weird, like absurd levels of flukish bad luck with one aspect of the game.

What you call Flukey, I just call Chargers being Chargers at the highest level possible.

[SkippyX]

The video leaned heavily towards propaganda designed to blame everything on special teams.

• It ignores the special teams role in the wins and everyone elses role in the losses.

Rivers had 10 TDs 6 picks and 6 fumbles in those losses. There is no mention of his performance in those losses.

• He had an 88 rating in 7 losses and an 119 rating in the 9 wins but the losses had nothing to do with him apparently.
• He fumbled 6 times in those 7 losses and he only fumbled 1 time in the 9 wins.
• He was sacked 23 times in the 7 losses and only 15 times in the 9 wins.
• The offense averaged 18.7 points per game in those 7 losses. It averaged 34.4 in the 9 wins
• The offense averaged 380 yards a game in the 7 losses. It averaged 407.4 in the wins.
• Keading and  Brown were 17 for 18 on kicks inside 40 yards but this video makes Keading look like he was terrible.
  • Those kickers were 26 of 28 from inside 50 yards. That's a 92.8% conversion rate (league average was 85.9)
  • Sure they missed 4 of 5 from 50+ but those are often coin flips and way more so in 2010 compared to now.  (54.6% of 50+ yard FGs were converted that year)
• Their punt return team averaged 10.6 per return (league average was 9.6) Their kick return team averaged 24 a return. The average was 22.3

4 blocked punts and 4 return TDs is horrible. Its not an excuse to play poorly on offense for 7 games.

It was not a tragedy that some great team missed the playoffs. It was a case of a team playing well enough to win 9 games and bad enough to lose 7 games.

The injuries were bad and scoring that much with good players out is a bit admirable but lets look at the details.

• They were 4-6 with Antonio Gates on the field.
• They were 6-5 when Malcolm Floyd played.
• They were 5-4 when Crayton played.
• They were 3-1 with Floyd and he was there #1 so that is a legit deficiency that hurt them.

 

Very bad special teams... sure

Some key injuries... no doubt

Bad offense at the wrong times... yes

The QB had some great games and some not good enough games... absolutely.

[DigInBoys]

http://www.nfl.com/network/top100

RIvers #17 for 2019.

Edited August 24, 2019 by DigInBoys

[Bearerofnews]

15 hours ago, Steelersfan43 said:

Special team is also important.The Chargers were also at -6 in turnovers differential which was hard to overcome ... The Chargers had won only 2 games against a team with a winning record too (Against the Colts and the Chiefs with Brodie Croyle).

The 1991 49ers were the best team ever (since 1990) to not make the playoffs ... For the Chargers, even the 2005 Chargers were a much better team who missed the playoffs.The 2005 Chargers had played against 11 teams that had a winning record and they had several weird losses.I think this team was better than every team in the NFC in 2005 including the Seahawks who had a very soft schedule

I would agree with the 91 49ers being better, but despite the harder SOS for the 2005 Chargers, i think the 2010 Chargers were a better team. Outside their last 2 losses. They should of won their first 5 losses. Atleast 3 of them. That was a 12-4 to 13-3 if not for some horrendeous special team play in 1 score losses.

That Chargers team was highly ranked in yds, pts, yds per drive, points per drive on offense and defense. They allowed the most total return yds, most return tds, had worst combined starting field position for offense and defense combined, they had multiple turnovers due to special teams.

Some of you are underrating how awful that special teams was. To allow 2 blocked punts in a single game and 2 returns for a td in a single game, in 2 different games in a single season, is unprecedented. 

Rivers "bad games" was avg games, not horrible by any stretch. There first 5 losses were by avg of 5.6 ppg.  Of their turnovers 29 were on offense, 14th most on the NFL. So they werent like top 10 in turnovers. 

[Bearerofnews]

 

 

2 hours ago, SkippyX said:

The video leaned heavily towards propaganda designed to blame everything on special teams.

• It ignores the special teams role in the wins and everyone elses role in the losses.

Rivers had 10 TDs 6 picks and 6 fumbles in those losses. There is no mention of his performance in those losses.

• He had an 88 rating in 7 losses and an 119 rating in the 9 wins but the losses had nothing to do with him apparently.
• He fumbled 6 times in those 7 losses and he only fumbled 1 time in the 9 wins.
• He was sacked 23 times in the 7 losses and only 15 times in the 9 wins.
• The offense averaged 18.7 points per game in those 7 losses. It averaged 34.4 in the 9 wins
• The offense averaged 380 yards a game in the 7 losses. It averaged 407.4 in the wins.
• Keading and  Brown were 17 for 18 on kicks inside 40 yards but this video makes Keading look like he was terrible.
  • Those kickers were 26 of 28 from inside 50 yards. That's a 92.8% conversion rate (league average was 85.9)
  • Sure they missed 4 of 5 from 50+ but those are often coin flips and way more so in 2010 compared to now.  (54.6% of 50+ yard FGs were converted that year)
• Their punt return team averaged 10.6 per return (league average was 9.6) Their kick return team averaged 24 a return. The average was 22.3

4 blocked punts and 4 return TDs is horrible. Its not an excuse to play poorly on offense for 7 games.

It was not a tragedy that some great team missed the playoffs. It was a case of a team playing well enough to win 9 games and bad enough to lose 7 games.

The injuries were bad and scoring that much with good players out is a bit admirable but lets look at the details.

• They were 4-6 with Antonio Gates on the field.
• They were 6-5 when Malcolm Floyd played.
• They were 5-4 when Crayton played.
• They were 3-1 with Floyd and he was there #1 so that is a legit deficiency that hurt them.

 

Very bad special teams... sure

Some key injuries... no doubt

Bad offense at the wrong times... yes

The QB had some great games and some not good enough games... absolutely.

Their kicking wasnt really the big issue. It was their horrible return coverage which combined kick and punt was worst in the league. 1st in kick yds and 5th in punt yds. Most when combined and most allowed tds. 

Also worst total starting field possession on offense and defense combined

Chargers were 2nd and 5th in points per drive on offense and defense and 2nd and 5th in yds per drive.

Their non-weighted ST DVOA was nearly 4 points worse than 2nd worst.

Their avg margin of defeat in their first 5 games was 5.6 ppg.

You act like 88 passer rating is bad in losses for a QB.

Plus what story are you trying to tell? Should a qb have good play in losses or bad play?

For example between Brady vs Rivers for their career, who do you think has a higher passer rating in losses? What does that mean.

2011 Chargers were also top 5 in pts and 6 in yds on offense 4th in pts per drive and 3rd in yds. Defense was bad as in 26th in pts per drive and 22nd in pts overall. Yes Rivers had 20 ints. But 9 came in 4 games and 11 in the other 12. 

2012, 2014 and 2015 were the only years Chargers had a bad offense with Rivers. 

You keep bringing up Brady and Ben winning big games.

Rivers has a 91.7 passer rating in the divisional round and is 1-5.

Ben has a passer rating of 92.4 and is 5-2

I think Ben is better than he was since 2008. But since 2008 he is 5-6 in the playoffs. Not because he became bad. But because his situation got worse. Not on offense, but no longer a top 3 defense.

Brady is 13-2 in divisional round with 94.1 rating. 

 

If you think Rivers having Norv and Mccoy as head coaches hasnt affected his trajectory in winning success,  i dont know what to tell you. I wont even use the injuries or roster turnover due to bad management as causation. Because all teams deal with that to different extents. But to deal with 77% of your playing career with awful head coaches is not something guys like Brady, Brees, Rodgers or Ben have had to deal with. You want to make a case that Norv was a great OC at one point, fine. But to make an argument for him as even an avg head coach, is just false.

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Bearerofnews

[Apparition]

You can make a case that Rivers throws too many picks to be truly elite, but he still has a better career TD-INT ratio than Roethlisberger, who is a HOF lock, and considerably better than Favre, who was in the GOAT conversation not too long ago. He has 10 interceptions in 11 career playoff games. Roethlisberger has 24 in 21, Peyton Manning had 25 in 27, hell even Brady has 34 in 40.

[Steelersfan43]

6 minutes ago, Starless said:

You can make a case that Rivers throws too many picks to be truly elite, but he still has a better career TD-INT ratio than Roethlisberger, who is a HOF lock, and considerably better than Favre, who was in the GOAT conversation not too long ago. He has 10 interceptions in 11 career playoff games. Roethlisberger has 24 in 21, Peyton Manning had 25 in 27, hell even Brady has 34 in 40.

Brett Favre was playing in another era too.

[Apparition]

Just now, Steelersfan43 said:

Brett Favre was playing in another era too.

His interception rate was higher from 2004 onward than it was pre-2004.

[AlexGreen#20]

7 minutes ago, Starless said:

His interception rate was higher from 2004 onward than it was pre-2004.

Brett Favre was also never in any serious GOAT conversation

[Apparition]

Just now, AlexGreen#20 said:

Brett Favre was also never in any serious GOAT conversation

How long ago was 2009?

[Steelersfan43]

12 minutes ago, Starless said:

His interception rate was higher from 2004 onward than it was pre-2004.

The peak of Brett Favre was in the 1990s.

[Apparition]

Just now, Steelersfan43 said:

The peak of Brett Favre was in the 1990s.

And? 

[Steelersfan43]

7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Brett Favre was also never in any serious GOAT conversation

I believe that Brett Favre is at least a top 10 QB ever, but yeah, he's not in the discussion for the best ever.

I think Favre would have been better in the 2000s if Mike Holmgren would have stayed in Green Bay.

[AlexGreen#20]

7 minutes ago, Starless said:

How long ago was 2009?

He wasn't a serious GOAT candidate in 2009 either

[Steelersfan43]

2 minutes ago, Starless said:

And? 

The stats for the QB were not inflated in the 1990s as this is the case now.

We've been talking a lot about the rules since 2004, but the safety rule since 2011 has a big impact on the NFL too, since the defenses can not hit the receiver in the middle of the field as before otherwise you'll have a 15 yards penalty,a big fine and maybe a suspension.

Easier to pass in the middle of the field now.