Week #12 Steelers vs. Browns Backyard Brawl Part 2

[Chieferific]

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I was having a discussion on this with a buddy of mine, and we were talking about how since Ryan Clark left, what our defense has been missing is the single high safety.  I'm not sure who to put this failing up to this point on, but someone messed up.  Continuing some thinking on, and I said something on this, but there's commentary from players (I think Haden) that Austin has really improved communication on the backend, Minkah might be the smartest guy he's shared the backfield with, and it's Tomin's vision coming to light.  

For sure and I wouldn't even classify Clark as a Single High.  I mean I know he played it but he was more of a tweener imo.  They loved their tweeners (Mitchell, Hope and the widely popular "Killswitch").  Fitz is what I have been wanting for decades.  A coverage first/playmaking FS.  Not a Knockout King FS.  They've gone the way of the Dodo.  

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

For sure and I wouldn't even classify Clark as a Single High.  I mean I know he played it but he was more of a tweener imo.  They loved their tweeners (Mitchell, Hope and the widely popular "Killswitch").  Fitz is what I have been wanting for decades.  A coverage first/playmaking FS.  Not a Knockout King FS.  They've gone the way of the Dodo.  

Well Clark was a single high, but for a different era of football.  He played in an era where hits were almost as good a INT's in the secondary (how many did we got off him delivering a hard hit and jarring the ball loose?).  But more to the point, that when you have the 'end of line' guy who is so good at not letting anything behind him, Tomlin's defense takes a whole new dimension.  Look at this year, and I'm going to show the impact that Fitzpatrick (and Nelson) has had on Tomlin's defensive design:

~Haden and Nelson have both been great cover guys this year.  While we can roll Edmunds to their side of the field for support when needed, these two are taking the boundary and protecting it well.

~In the middle, having Fitzpatrick, with his intelligence, football IQ, and speed means we don't need as much cover-2, taking away a glaring seam weakness in our defense.

~The front line being able to get pressure without blitzing, means we get home with only 4 players.  So with the 2 cover guys, 1 safety, and 4 rushers, only 7 of your 11 defensive players are accounted for.

~We've been much better against TE's since Fitzpatrick's intro to the team because we no longer need to drop Edmunds back, we don't need to send the extra rusher.  That leaves 4 guys to take a TE, SWR, and RB.  Well our pass rush is great enough that one of those three need to stay in and chip.  So between Bush, Williams, Barron (who I think has played well enough to keep his spot next year now), Sutton, Hilton (who I think has lost his spot next year to Sutton), and Edmunds; we can use any combo to cover 2 guys.  We can have Bush and Barron bracket the TE, Sutton on the WR, and that leaves Edmunds to spy (like they did against Baker and I suspect Murray); or we can put Bush on the TE, Barron on the RB, Sutton on the WR, and Edmunds roams short crossings and picks.

Literally TJ Watt, Minkah Fitzpatrick, and Steven Nelson have been the keys to transforming Tomlin's vision of our defense.  And what great is all three are here at least another 3 years with two of them being on rookie deals.  These three guys doing what they are doing is what makes a Tomlin defense click.  Look at anywhere he's been a defensive coach before us, and you will see the same thing: Elite pass rusher, good single high safety, solid #2 that doesn't need help but can be given it.

[jebrick]

Clark played single high safety a lot due to Polamalu playing the Joker in LeBeau's defense.  He was less of a CF safety an more of an enforcer.  I would say Fitzpatrick is more of the field general which is what Clark did as well.

[Chieferific]

23 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Well Clark was a single high, but for a different era of football.  He played in an era where hits were almost as good a INT's in the secondary (how many did we got off him delivering a hard hit and jarring the ball loose?).  But more to the point, that when you have the 'end of line' guy who is so good at not letting anything behind him, Tomlin's defense takes a whole new dimension.  Look at this year, and I'm going to show the impact that Fitzpatrick (and Nelson) has had on Tomlin's defensive design:

~Haden and Nelson have both been great cover guys this year.  While we can roll Edmunds to their side of the field for support when needed, these two are taking the boundary and protecting it well.

~In the middle, having Fitzpatrick, with his intelligence, football IQ, and speed means we don't need as much cover-2, taking away a glaring seam weakness in our defense.

~The front line being able to get pressure without blitzing, means we get home with only 4 players.  So with the 2 cover guys, 1 safety, and 4 rushers, only 7 of your 11 defensive players are accounted for.

~We've been much better against TE's since Fitzpatrick's intro to the team because we no longer need to drop Edmunds back, we don't need to send the extra rusher.  That leaves 4 guys to take a TE, SWR, and RB.  Well our pass rush is great enough that one of those three need to stay in and chip.  So between Bush, Williams, Barron (who I think has played well enough to keep his spot next year now), Sutton, Hilton (who I think has lost his spot next year to Sutton), and Edmunds; we can use any combo to cover 2 guys.  We can have Bush and Barron bracket the TE, Sutton on the WR, and that leaves Edmunds to spy (like they did against Baker and I suspect Murray); or we can put Bush on the TE, Barron on the RB, Sutton on the WR, and Edmunds roams short crossings and picks.

Literally TJ Watt, Minkah Fitzpatrick, and Steven Nelson have been the keys to transforming Tomlin's vision of our defense.  And what great is all three are here at least another 3 years with two of them being on rookie deals.  These three guys doing what they are doing is what makes a Tomlin defense click.  Look at anywhere he's been a defensive coach before us, and you will see the same thing: Elite pass rusher, good single high safety, solid #2 that doesn't need help but can be given it.

Don't really disagree with any of that. I'd just say the Steelers were a little late to the party adding (or trying to add) and true SH FS.  They seemed to be stuck favoring that type of tweener player (imo anyway).  Great breakdown on the new additions btw.  I personally can't recall a time a Defense made that type up positive transition in such a short amount of time. 

[August4th]

finding this defense has open our window past Ben. I can see this team competing with a defense like this with average QB play. we're seeing it with terrible QB play.

[August4th]

the upside to all the injuries on offense is we might of found some good depth guys by looking through other teams practice squad

whyte(looked good against the Bengals and had our best return in the cle game..adds speed to the running back room) and deon cain(had a great catch against the bengals and had a impact in the browns game with the DPI and another catch...can end up being a solid number 4 guy or more..he's still young) I hope they keep these two around and let them compete for a roster spot next yr.

[3rivers]

4 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Just shows you how much of a difference one single player can make.   The addition of Fitzpatrick has had an amazing impact on this defense, and the team overall.    They have had more freedom with playcalling and how they use players.  There are still flaws, but this is still a championship caliber defense.  Just sucks that it came together the same year our offense fell apart. 

I'm expecting the offence to keep getting better as Duck gets more comfortable and when JJSS and Connor return , maybe Nix too. Right now I am still hoping the OL gets near to what they are capable of, and then JJSS and Connor get going, and that should be a decent offence. The Defence is good, but there have been other really good defences in the history of the nfl that never won SB's. 

and regarding the rest of your thread, Sean Davis injury is what changed the season most, as well as Minkah asking for a trade and the dolphins granting it. Without the Davis injury, none of this happens, colbert wants to have his draft picks play out their 4 year deal no matter what. 

[3rivers]

2 hours ago, August4th said:

finding this defense has open our window past Ben. I can see this team competing with a defense like this with average QB play. we're seeing it with terrible QB play.

and if JJSS , OL and Connor return and the QB play is decent?

[MOSteelers56]

I think Minkah is definitely the main reason why our defense turned around but I hope people don't forget how good of a signing Nelson has been. He's locking one half of the field down. Add in Haden, who seems to be improving, and Minkah on the back end and we're looking really good. Also, I like some of the gradual improvements of Edmunds. He's still not a good draft pick, but he seems to be making incremental improvements. 

[Chieferific]

3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think Minkah is definitely the main reason why our defense turned around but I hope people don't forget how good of a signing Nelson has been. He's locking one half of the field down. Add in Haden, who seems to be improving, and Minkah on the back end and we're looking really good. Also, I like some of the gradual improvements of Edmunds. He's still not a good draft pick, but he seems to be making incremental improvements. 

Edmunds was a great 3 Rd pick. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Chieferific

[3rivers]

3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think Minkah is definitely the main reason why our defense turned around but I hope people don't forget how good of a signing Nelson has been. He's locking one half of the field down. Add in Haden, who seems to be improving, and Minkah on the back end and we're looking really good. Also, I like some of the gradual improvements of Edmunds. He's still not a good draft pick, but he seems to be making incremental improvements. 

Nelson signing was crucial, and if Burns wasn't such a fail, I doubt this signing would have happened. At least UFA helped the FO fix some of their past woes, and they got Nelson for a good price considering how good he has been (at least compared to what we are used to). Edmunds lacks the range and physicality and tackling to ever be the SS a team covets.  He still will  make some plays I suppose, but will never even approach Troy or even Lake. 

Haden had some injuries to deal with, hopes are he stays healthy and gets back to form, he appears to be .  Having corners that are in position to get Int's AND be able to catch also helps this team.  The LeBeau/Tomlin era lacked Int's from the CB position, and TO's in general.  The Tomlin/Butler defence FINALLY is legit and getting TO's at a rate the Steelers haven't had since early 90's (they had 40 in 96 though) .

Looking back, I think it's been about 6 years that many here have wanted legit CB's and we finally have 2+ legit CB's, but there is also depth. Letting Lewis go  way back was a fail, then Cortez didn't care (another fail but that's on the player) and it seemed like the CB position was always going to be a weakness.  Then the Browns let us sign Haden 

[jebrick]

Just proves that the scouts/coaches can't draft a DB to save themselves.  All impact DBs are from FA/trade

[3rivers]

9 hours ago, jebrick said:

Just proves that the scouts/coaches can't draft a DB to save themselves.  All impact DBs are from FA/trade

good at drafting WR's, but clueless on DB's.  They drafted a good one years ago (Lewis) and let him walk

[Shady Slim]

On 04/12/2019 at 8:36 AM, 3rivers said:

Nelson signing was crucial, and if Burns wasn't such a fail, I doubt this signing would have happened. At least UFA helped the FO fix some of their past woes, and they got Nelson for a good price considering how good he has been (at least compared to what we are used to). Edmunds lacks the range and physicality and tackling to ever be the SS a team covets.  He still will  make some plays I suppose, but will never even approach Troy or even Lake. 

Haden had some injuries to deal with, hopes are he stays healthy and gets back to form, he appears to be .  Having corners that are in position to get Int's AND be able to catch also helps this team.  The LeBeau/Tomlin era lacked Int's from the CB position, and TO's in general.  The Tomlin/Butler defence FINALLY is legit and getting TO's at a rate the Steelers haven't had since early 90's (they had 40 in 96 though) .

Looking back, I think it's been about 6 years that many here have wanted legit CB's and we finally have 2+ legit CB's, but there is also depth. Letting Lewis go  way back was a fail, then Cortez didn't care (another fail but that's on the player) and it seemed like the CB position was always going to be a weakness.  Then the Browns let us sign Haden 

real talk though haden’s signing was the start of a huge upheaval of our CB room... nelson wasn’t exactly a superstar coming over and not a super hyped signing but just having that recognised number two option across from haden makes them both better! and haden was already damn good for us too... thanks cleveland!

Edited December 6, 2019 by Shady Slim

[3rivers]

7 hours ago, Shady Slim said:

real talk though haden’s signing was the start of a huge upheaval of our CB room... nelson wasn’t exactly a superstar coming over and not a super hyped signing but just having that recognised number two option across from haden makes them both better! and haden was already damn good for us too... thanks cleveland!

Haden was really good, it was a shock that he never got more offers.  I think Rooney had enough of watching that secondary and they really stepped in on that one, because colbert hasn't brought in a big name CB since when? Nelson has been really good, and again, the FO finally realized that colbert and co. can't draft CB's that well. In the last 10 years I think Sutton and Lewis are the only legit CB's drafted. Others had injuries or just failed but there have been many, it's not like the FO never tried thats for sure.  Thats where UFA is the better option, and they FINALLY!  decided on that for CB and it also is a major improvement. The pass rush is there with 4 DL but there is also a centerfielder that nobody will throw near and 4CB's that can actually cover AND catch. 

In the playoffs, It will be a good test for this defence to see how they hold up on all levels. Some OL's are vulnerable, so I expect the pass rush to get there. The CB's though, will be tested, asa all the playoff teams have some top notch WR's or speedy WR's.  Maybe the Minkah trade shines once again in the post season , I just hope from here on that the offence helps and they get off to better starts and score off the TO's the defence gets for them. Thats  fichner though, and he still has a ways to