Williams Asks for Extension or Trade

[naptownskinsfan]

10 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

@Thaiphoon If we were talking about Morgan Moses or another OT, I’d agree with you, but outside of Trent needing to be there to learn the offense - which I agree is immensely important - his reaction time is not going to be that off. I know we don’t agree. It’s fine, but we’re talking about one of the most athletic LTs in NFL history here, not an avg moving guy who’s just big. I bet whenever Trent gets back to a practice - whether it’s in Dc or somewhere else within the first practice he has back he’s stonewalling the teams best past pass rusher - whether that’s going to be here & him going against Chase Young or Sweat, CLE & Myles Garrett, Minny & Daniel Hunter or Tampa and Shaquil Barrett who had 19.5 sacks last year.

We’ve seen Trent miss a month twice for weed, we’ve seen him miss games for a few weeks w/ injuries and we’ve seen him play with a patella injury for months and the dude could block anyone.

He’s not normal! He’s a freak of nature. 

His last NFL game was 12-30-18.  If he takes the field Week 1 of the NFL season it will be 09-13-20.  That's 20 months of not playing NFL games.  It will almost assuredly be 16-18 months before he will even take a practice field.  He's also 32 years old, and had a huge chunk of his head removed since he last played as well.  

To assume ANYTHING about how well he would do based off of his past missing injuries, etc, is not a smart take.  And this is why the Redskins are struggling to get the value they want for him.  

[turtle28]

4 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

His last NFL game was 12-30-18.  If he takes the field Week 1 of the NFL season it will be 09-13-20.  That's 20 months of not playing NFL games.  It will almost assuredly be 16-18 months before he will even take a practice field.  He's also 32 years old, and had a huge chunk of his head removed since he last played as well.  

To assume ANYTHING about how well he would do based off of his past missing injuries, etc, is not a smart take.  And this is why the Redskins are struggling to get the value they want for him.  

Umm yeah, so I know that. It doesn’t change my opinion that Trent is a freak athlete and has very rare athleticism for a man his size.

I swear Trent & Jason Peters could line up at corner and hold their own out there. They just have athleticism you can’t teach.

Yeah, there will be rust, but it won’t be for long. He’ll straighten it out w/in his first practice and first game. Not many can do that, but not many are on Trent’s level of the combo of size, strength and athleticism.

[turtle28]

Not really news, but wanted to post it.

[DaWg_LB.]

6 hours ago, turtle28 said:

So there must be someplace to meet in the middle. I’d do a straight player swap tbh. You all’s are getting a pro bowl top 5 LT player - something that if Brice Allen would’ve traded you last year may have helped you get into the playoffs considering your play at LT greatly affected your passing game.

As far as Njoku goes, the Browns hurt his value when they signed Hooper. Doing that made Njoku a part time player at best. So, you are analyzing Trent in a certain way, but I don’t think you are analyzing the Njoku situation through that same lens Njoku missed most of last year too and - unlike w/ Trent - the Browns just signed his replacement! 
 

Look, the way I think the Browns should look at this is that they’re getting a pro Bowl LT who has several years left in the tank. Nobody knows how many exactly, but my guess would be at least 3. That’s 3 years that Baker’s backside & frontside are protected by pro bowl OTs, that’s huge for his development and for your passing game!

Also, as I said your front office already replaced your player. He had an injury which cost him most of last year which hurts his value some as well and so, he really only has one year of good production from two years ago.

I think Browns fans need to come to the conclusion - like Redskins fans already have about Trent - that Njoku is gone after this season! They’re not going to re-sign him - he’ll they aren’t even going to keep him on the 5th year option - bc they signed Hooper. So, it would be smart to trade him for a pro bowl LT. That would help out your offense more then what I’d describe as at best a part time TE who mostly will be riding the pine and playing special teams.
 

 

Point 1: I agree, there probably is somewhere to meet in the middle. I d'o feel a player for player swap would be even harder, because the way our current roster is constructed, yall would want to reach in the "Non Conversation Starter" Bin, or feel like were trying to pawn off a player who you guys think is a way undervalue. IF Goose Allen (Shout'out to Grant Paulson), would have traded last year, it would have helped without question, but with the coaching, lack of discipline, Disaster at RG and RT (IMO both were WORSE than LT play honestly), injuries and suspensions (which trent is open to both injuries and suspensions) I dont feel its fair to say exactly what type of final impact he would have had on the record (playoffs), we could have made the trade and trent tear a bicep 2 games in, and then he goes on IR for the year. I will compromise saying he would have helped Mayfields protection a great deal, IF he remained healthy (20% chance...2 16 game seasons in 10 years).

Point 2: I disagree with the projections of exactly what we would be getting was stated. I feel we would get a Top 10 probowl (not All Pro) OT that will not have played a game or made a pro bowl in 2 seasons and will be turning 32. We dont know exactly what Trent is going to look like coming back. I will admit you guys have a better idea of what he might look like, but even you have to admit there is NO way anyone can know. 

Point 3:I think you have a misconception, the Browns didnt decrease his value when they signed Hooper, they went and got a 2nd TE for a coach who runs a 2 TE offense, think Gronk and Hernandez...or hell think of Irv Smith Jr. and Kyle Rudolph and see what being in that offense did for Ya'lls Old QB, IF anything that increases his value even more to us. 

And the biggest difference with looking at Njoku is that he has missed time in 1 year of the 3 he's been in the NFL, Trent averages playing 16 games once every 5 years and he started missing time with injury in year 2. Without Njoku having the same time, then we are both making projections and I use math based on track record to perceive my position on things this. Njoku had solid production in year 1, good numbers in year 2 and got hurt in year 3, he's 24 and getting better. So his arrow, based on production is headed up. He now has a coach that runs a 2 TE offense and should theoretically know how to utilize him a lot better than Freddie Kitchens did.

Your last statement is pure Speculation from a Skins fan point of view....almost belligerent and Projecting.....if Njoku catches 67, for 704, 8 TD's,......and with Currently the MOST cap room in the NFL, I bet you we pick up the 5th year option. So now we dont know that Njoku is gone after this year.

Trent we know was GONE before last year, he and his agent said it, and backed it up with his actions......going on IR because his "Helmet didnt fit"...seriously . That is fact's.................Njoku leaving is SO much projective speculation, its scary.

I see your points of view and respect them, even if I dont agree with them. Both Just coming from different points of view....

Edited April 9, 2020 by DaWg_LB.

[DaWg_LB.]

2 hours ago, aceinthehouse said:

I prefer to send Trent to the Browns...

Why?

2)Punishment= Its where football careers go & die. (Say what you want about the Redskins & Snyder...At least the Redskins know HOW to win a SB. Poor Cousins in Minnesota & Trent if in Cleveland would be nice closer to a couple of pricks.)

LOL, yeah because Washington is where Players take less money to come win a championship......Cleveland and the Skins have the same amount of SB wins in the last 25+ years.....

Also one could "Say what you want about the Redskins & Snyder...At least the Redskins know HOW to win a SB".....Actually the Redskins last won a title in 92, Snider purchased the team in 1999....so No.....Actually a Snyder owned and lead Skins does NOT know how to win a SB.

I know I am a visitor in the Skins Home right now.....and I mean no offense..... BUT at the same time, i defend my team, if my team is attacked.....Who dosent and is a Real fan of their team?

[turtle28]

13 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

Point 1: I agree, there probably is somewhere to meet in the middle. I d'o feel a player for player swap would be even harder, because the way our current roster is constructed, yall would want to reach in the "Non Conversation Starter" Bin, or feel like were trying to pawn off a player who you guys think is a way undervalue. IF Goose Allen (Shout'out to Grant Paulson), would have traded last year, it would have helped without question, but with the coaching, lack of discipline, Disaster at RG and RT (IMO both were WORSE than LT play honestly), injuries and suspensions (which trent is open to both injuries and suspensions) I dont feel its fair to say exactly what type of final impact he would have had on the record (playoffs), we could have made the trade and trent tear a bicep 2 games in, and then he goes on IR for the year. I will compromise saying he would have helped Mayfields protection a great deal, IF he remained healthy (20% chance...2 16 game seasons in 10 years).

Point 2: I disagree with the projections of exactly what we would be getting was stated. I feel we would get a Top 10 probowl (not All Pro) OT that will not have played a game or made a pro bowl in 2 seasons and will be turning 32. We dont know exactly what Trent is going to look like coming back. I will admit you guys have a better idea of what he might look like, but even you have to admit there is NO way anyone can know. 

Point 3:I think you have a misconception, the Browns didnt decrease his value when they signed Hooper, they went and got a 2nd TE for a coach who runs a 2 TE offense, think Gronk and Hernandez...or hell think of Irv Smith Jr. and Kyle Rudolph and see what being in that offense did for Ya'lls Old QB, IF anything that increases his value even more to us. 

And the biggest difference with looking at Njoku is that he has missed time in 1 year of the 3 he's been in the NFL, Trent averages playing 16 games once every 5 years and he started missing time with injury in year 2. Without Njoku having the same time, then we are both making projections and I use math based on track record to perceive my position on things this. Njoku had solid production in year 1, good numbers in year 2 and got hurt in year 3, he's 24 and getting better. So his arrow, based on production is headed up. He now has a coach that runs a 2 TE offense and should theoretically know how to utilize him a lot better than Freddie Kitchens did.

Your last statement is pure Speculation from a Skins fan point of view....almost belligerent and Projecting.....if Njoku catches 67, for 704, 8 TD's,......and with Currently the MOST cap room in the NFL, I bet you we pick up the 5th year option. So now we dont know that Njoku is gone after this year.

Trent we know was GONE before last year, he and his agent said it, and backed it up with his actions......going on IR because his "Helmet didnt fit"...seriously . That is fact's.................Njoku leaving is SO much projective speculation, its scary.

I see your points of view and respect them, even if I dont agree with them. Both Just coming from different points of view....

You have to pick up the 5th year option this offseason and you just signed Hopper to a huge deal. We’ll see what happens, it's my opinion he doesn't get it. Also, yes it's true once a decade a two TE set works out well, there's no guarantee that it will with Hopper & Njoku.
 

Irv Smith & Aaron Hernandez were different type of TEs, they're move TEs/H-backs. The Browns now have two inlineTEs. I'm sure they'll play together some, will it be more than 50% of your offensive snaps? I question that bc almost all teams save Baltimore & Tenn are in 3 wide receiver looks about 70% of the game.

The Redskins ran some 2-TE sets with Jordan Reed & Vernon Davis from 2016-2018 but again like with Aaron Hernandez & Irv Smith, Jordan Reed was a move TE/H-back that the Redskins moved around in different formations.

Maybe the Browns do that with Hooper but I really question if it will work just bc it didn't work for the Redskins w/ Cooley & Fred Davis and kinda worked w/ Davis & JReed but Davis usually put up stats in the games where JReed was hurt - so Davis started & played all the snaps. When they played together, rarely did Vernon Davis have great stats bc Reed was the #1 Or 2 target almost every play, Davis was mostly the inline blocker unless Reed was hurt.

Edited April 10, 2020 by turtle28

[e16bball]

7 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said:

Point 3:I think you have a misconception, the Browns didnt decrease his value when they signed Hooper, they went and got a 2nd TE for a coach who runs a 2 TE offense, think Gronk and Hernandez...or hell think of Irv Smith Jr. and Kyle Rudolph and see what being in that offense did for Ya'lls Old QB, IF anything that increases his value even more to us. 

Irv Smith and Kyle Rudolph combined for like 600 yards receiving last year. They were 33rd and 26th, respectively, among TEs in receiving yards. They barely cracked the top 10 COMBINED. If you’re choosing not to trade for one of the best LTs of the past decade because you’re hoping to replicate the “success” Stefanski had with them, I think it’s probably not us that’s operating under the misconception. 

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, e16bball said:

Irv Smith and Kyle Rudolph combined for like 600 yards receiving last year. They were 33rd and 26th, respectively, among TEs in receiving yards. They barely cracked the top 10 COMBINED. If you’re choosing not to trade for one of the best LTs of the past decade because you’re hoping to replicate the “success” Stefanski had with them, I think it’s probably not us that’s operating under the misconception. 

While true, they did have 75 recs & 8 TDs combined, still a good TE should get 75 recs, 800 yds & 6 to 8 TDs on his own, which is what I expect Hooper to get for the Browns. Rudolph is like Jason Witten, he’s a big TE, good blocker & gets TDs & first downs but he offers no yac at all. Irv is a smaller move TE, but not a guy you want as an in-line blocker, he’s a poor man’s Jordan Reed.

That being said, there’s just no reason for them to hang onto Njoku, the smart move is to trade him for a pick or to us & get back Trent to have book ends to protect Baker so he isn’t running for his life like last year.

Edited April 10, 2020 by turtle28

[DaWg_LB.]

7 hours ago, e16bball said:

Irv Smith and Kyle Rudolph combined for like 600 yards receiving last year. They were 33rd and 26th, respectively, among TEs in receiving yards. They barely cracked the top 10 COMBINED. If you’re choosing not to trade for one of the best LTs of the past decade because you’re hoping to replicate the “success” Stefanski had with them, I think it’s probably not us that’s operating under the misconception. 

 

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

While true, they did have 75 recs & 8 TDs combined

All while being a playoff team and also having the #8 rushing offense in the NFL....

 

[e16bball]

3 hours ago, turtle28 said:

While true, they did have 75 recs & 8 TDs combined, still a good TE should get 75 recs, 800 yds & 6 to 8 TDs on his own, which is what I expect Hooper to get for the Browns. Rudolph is like Jason Witten, he’s a big TE, good blocker & gets TDs & first downs but he offers no yac at all. Irv is a smaller move TE, but not a guy you want as an in-line blocker, he’s a poor man’s Jordan Reed.

That being said, there’s just no reason for them to hang onto Njoku, the smart move is to trade him for a pick or to us & get back Trent to have book ends to protect Baker so he isn’t running for his life like last year.

Not sure what you’re getting at here, honestly. I’m familiar with the players. 

The point is, there’s no real basis for acting like Stefanski is a guy who has somehow cracked the code to getting top production out of multiple TEs. They got more yardage production out of their top two TEs the previous season, when it was Kyle Rudolph (634 yards) and Tyler Conklin (77 yards), than they did with the Rudolph/Smith duo. 

[e16bball]

Here’s a Browns scenario. Let’s say we trade 2 for 5, 18, and 39. Probably best deal we could hope for out of Miami. Would you then use Trent as a means of trading up from 18 to 10, where we could get one of the top 4 OT prospects? Either:

WAS Gets: #10

CLE gets: #18 and Trent Williams

Or a more complicated version that would probably work better for the Redskins:

WAS Gets: #10, #74, and David Njoku

CLE Gets: #18, #66, and Trent Williams

 

The latter trade comes out to basically Trent Williams for David Njoku and a 3rd on the new pick value chart, which I prefer to the outdated Jimmy Johnson model. But it allows each team to find a sweet spot for position value in the 1st round. We would need an OT, and thus would have to get up into the top 12-14 picks. CLE is probably looking more for LB/S/DT, and pick 18 would put them in prime position for guys like Kinlaw, McKinney, or Queen/Murray. 

If we could pull that off, and walk away from the first two days of the draft with something like Isaiah Simmons, Andrew Thomas, Laviska Shenault, and David Njoku — in exchange, basically, for Chase Young and Trent Williams and a 3rd round pick swap — that could be setting us up for a big resurgence. 

[MikeT14]

@e16bball - it's a great post. As usual. And it makes a lot of sense in just about any other draft. It truly does. I love a good trade down. 

I am not giving up Chase Young though. I can't. I haven't had someone with his potential on my team in a long time. I think he's going to be an absolute menace. They'll need to find other ways to fix the rest of the team. Spend money next year. Trade down next year. Whatever it is later, right now it's Chase Young. Nothing else (within reason). 

Maybe do this with the Browns - swap their 2nd for our 3rd (that way we can get a better prospect quicker) and then do a 2021 conditional 4th/5th or something.

[e16bball]

24 minutes ago, MikeT14 said:

@e16bball - it's a great post. As usual. And it makes a lot of sense in just about any other draft. It truly does. I love a good trade down. 

I am not giving up Chase Young though. I can't. I haven't had someone with his potential on my team in a long time. I think he's going to be an absolute menace. They'll need to find other ways to fix the rest of the team. Spend money next year. Trade down next year. Whatever it is later, right now it's Chase Young. Nothing else (within reason). 

Maybe do this with the Browns - swap their 2nd for our 3rd (that way we can get a better prospect quicker) and then do a 2021 conditional 4th/5th or something.

I’m with you. Chase is That Dude™️. I don’t want to move out either, and I’m still cursing the team for putting me in a position where I’m even considering it — it’s hard to have any faith in the offensive roster they’re sending Haskins out there with, and I keep wanting to find a way to get him an LT and a WR2 for this pivotal season.

That’s an interesting suggestion, for sure. On either the old chart or the new, that 2nd/3rd pick swap would value Trent as a high 3rd. Add in the conditional future pick and it would be right up in the area of the value they seem to be seeking. I usually like to focus on accumulating a quantity of picks in trades, instead of just boosting the quality of a pick, but that would be appealing because it would move us right into the strike zone for a lot of these starting caliber receivers like Shenault and Reagor and Aiyuk. 

[MikeT14]

3 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I’m with you. Chase is That Dude™️. I don’t want to move out either, and I’m still cursing the team for putting me in a position where I’m even considering it — it’s hard to have any faith in the offensive roster they’re sending Haskins out there with, and I keep wanting to find a way to get him an LT and a WR2 for this pivotal season.

That’s an interesting suggestion, for sure. On either the old chart or the new, that 2nd/3rd pick swap would value Trent as a high 3rd. Add in the conditional future pick and it would be right up in the area of the value they seem to be seeking. I usually like to focus on accumulating a quantity of picks in trades, instead of just boosting the quality of a pick, but that would be appealing because it would move us right into the strike zone for a lot of these starting caliber receivers like Shenault and Reagor and Aiyuk. 

Bingo. 

[turtle28]

4 hours ago, e16bball said:

Not sure what you’re getting at here, honestly. I’m familiar with the players. 

The point is, there’s no real basis for acting like Stefanski is a guy who has somehow cracked the code to getting top production out of multiple TEs. They got more yardage production out of their top two TEs the previous season, when it was Kyle Rudolph (634 yards) and Tyler Conklin (77 yards), than they did with the Rudolph/Smith duo. 

I'm just pointing out that while they should've gotten more yards - particularly Rudolph - that they did still produce in receptions and especially TDs - particularly Rudolph in the red zone. So, while Rudolph doesn't get many yards ”all he does is score touchdowns” in my Buddy Ryan voice.