Raiders sign S Damarious Randall

[Dessie]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I'll never understand the obsession with Karl Joseph on here. Dude stunk it up throughout his career here. 

Whilst he might not have lived up to his draft status, saying he stunk it up is complete nonsense. 

[NYRaider]

30 minutes ago, Dessie said:

Whilst he might not have lived up to his draft status, saying he stunk it up is complete nonsense. 

He had 4 INT in 4 years here and we had one of the worst secondaries in the league every year that he was a starter. With Joseph the hope was that he'd be an enforcer that could make plays all over the field. He was too small to do that, too small to cover TE's, and doesn't have the range to play single high effectively. 

[drfrey13]

40 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I'll never understand the obsession with Karl Joseph on here. Dude stunk it up throughout his career here. 

First let me quote MM: "With his range, toughness and ability to drop down in the slot and cover man, he's like a poor man's Earl Thomas. He says he models his game after Brian Dawkins. Some say he's much like Bob Sanders. This is a dynamic playmaker." -- Mike Mayock.  He still has those abilities but he has had coaches that keep trying to put the square peg in a round hole.  That year I was watching West Virginia games and wanting to draft their entire secondary but Joseph most of all.  However I was pissed when we spent a 1st on a player that should have gone in the 2nd at the earliest.  Now for the Carr level excuses.  Year one he was still not ready after the knee injury but had an alright season for a rookie and flashed as a big hitter.  2017 he improved and statistically had his best season after starting 15 games.  2018 and for whatever reason we decided he was not starting material and when getting the chance graded out, I know PFF, as or best defender.  Last year he played well but the injury along with no 5th year tender and Abram sealed the deal.  He is a good man defender but can not match up with TEs.  We have lacked players to take on TEs since I can remember and we all knew he could not but he was our best option.  Having a player like Littleton and Randal would have opened up what you could do with Joseph and played to his strengths.  He could not play single high but that was not his game.  He was not a bad player here but not worth a 1st and our coaches/personel were never capable of covering for his weaknesses.  Hopefully the Browns can and I wish him the best.  He got a raw deal here and is a lot more talented than what we saw.  He only stunk it up when he was asked to do things we already knew he could not.  Tell me every time you saw him line up on Kelce 1 on 1 you knew if the QB threw it up high he had no shot no mater how good his coverage was.  He was always less than a step behind but was just too small.  I wonder what his QB rating allowed vs WRs was.

[Dessie]

39 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

He had 4 INT in 4 years here and we had one of the worst secondaries in the league every year that he was a starter. With Joseph the hope was that he'd be an enforcer that could make plays all over the field. He was too small to do that, too small to cover TE's, and doesn't have the range to play single high effectively. 

Like I said he hasn’t made enough plays to be worthy of his draft status. That said he’s been miscast in Guenthers defense as he is really an in the box safety. His run support is pretty good and his hard hits can set the tone. Wish it would have worked out for him here.

To say he ‘stunk it out’ is a complete overreaction. 

Joseph is an example of a player over drafted which leads to fans expecting too much. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Dessie

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, drfrey13 said:

First let me quote MM: "With his range, toughness and ability to drop down in the slot and cover man, he's like a poor man's Earl Thomas. He says he models his game after Brian Dawkins. Some say he's much like Bob Sanders. This is a dynamic playmaker." -- Mike Mayock.  He still has those abilities but he has had coaches that keep trying to put the square peg in a round hole.  That year I was watching West Virginia games and wanting to draft their entire secondary but Joseph most of all.  However I was pissed when we spent a 1st on a player that should have gone in the 2nd at the earliest.  Now for the Carr level excuses.  Year one he was still not ready after the knee injury but had an alright season for a rookie and flashed as a big hitter.  2017 he improved and statistically had his best season after starting 15 games.  2018 and for whatever reason we decided he was not starting material and when getting the chance graded out, I know PFF, as or best defender.  Last year he played well but the injury along with no 5th year tender and Abram sealed the deal.  He is a good man defender but can not match up with TEs.  We have lacked players to take on TEs since I can remember and we all knew he could not but he was our best option.  Having a player like Littleton and Randal would have opened up what you could do with Joseph and played to his strengths.  He could not play single high but that was not his game.  He was not a bad player here but not worth a 1st and our coaches/personel were never capable of covering for his weaknesses.  Hopefully the Browns can and I wish him the best.  He got a raw deal here and is a lot more talented than what we saw.  He only stunk it up when he was asked to do things we already knew he could not.  Tell me every time you saw him line up on Kelce 1 on 1 you knew if the QB threw it up high he had no shot no mater how good his coverage was.  He was always less than a step behind but was just too small.  I wonder what his QB rating allowed vs WRs was.

What exactly was he good at though? His reputation coming in was a player that could set the tone with his physical presence as a big hitter. He was never that type of player here because he was too small to do that in the NFL. As you said he also lacked the range to play single high and was also too small and not good enough in man coverage to matchup with TE. So what exactly did/does he do well? Randall has more range and better ball skills to play single high plus is much better in man coverage with his extensive experience playing at CB. Abram has more range deep, is better in man vs TE, and a much more physical presence in the box. 

[drfrey13]

34 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

He had 4 INT in 4 years here and we had one of the worst secondaries in the league every year that he was a starter. With Joseph the hope was that he'd be an enforcer that could make plays all over the field. He was too small to do that, too small to cover TE's, and doesn't have the range to play single high effectively. 

He also played next to over the hill safeties.  You do remember that Reggie Nelson was the other safety before last year. He was an enforcer.  He was the only defensive player in the back seven that you had to worry about when you had the ball in your hands.  You need to go back and look at our rosters since we drafted him.  We looked better last year but he also looked better last year and I believe he would have looked great next year.  Finally got some players that can do the things we should have never asked him to do.  I completely agree with you about TEs and single high.  You should get zero arguments about that.

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, Dessie said:

Like I said he hasn’t made enough plays to be worthy of his draft status. That said he’s been miscast in Guenthers defense as he is really an in the box safety. His run support is pretty good and his hard hits can set the tone. Wish it would have worked out for him here.

To say he ‘stunk it out’ is a complete overreaction. 

He was billed as a physical, hard hitting, tone setting safety. But was never able to showcase that because he's too small. Joseph isn't great setting the tone in the box and can't cover TE's because of his size. Yet lacks the range or ball skills to be a ball hawk as a single high safety. So what exactly does he do well? Even if you wanted to keep him around as in the box safety, he's not better than Abram who's bigger, faster, and has better instincts. Or even better than Heath who is one of the best tackling safeties in the league. 

[holyghost]

2 minutes ago, Dessie said:

Like I said he hasn’t made enough plays to be worthy of his draft status. That said he’s been miscast in Guenthers defense as he is really an in the box safety. His run support is pretty good and his hard hits can set the tone. Wish it would have worked out for him here.

To say he ‘stunk it out’ is a complete overreaction. 

He's a decent in the box safety. Problem is that you can get an average box safety that is woefully undersized and injury prone in any round of the draft, any free agency period, and even undrafted every year. He could not cover, could not cover TEs specifically, had terrible ball skills. He could stop the run. There's no real distinction from him and a guy like Nick Morrow, draft value wise. He had apologists and supporters yearly, but I could never understand it.

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, drfrey13 said:

He also played next to over the hill safeties.  You do remember that Reggie Nelson was the other safety before last year. He was an enforcer.  He was the only defensive player in the back seven that you had to worry about when you had the ball in your hands.  You need to go back and look at our rosters since we drafted him.  We looked better last year but he also looked better last year and I believe he would have looked great next year.  Finally got some players that can do the things we should have never asked him to do.  I completely agree with you about TEs and single high.  You should get zero arguments about that.

Which is fine. But if you want to keep him as a strictly in the box safety where does he fit with us? Heath is one of the best tackling safeties in the league and Abram is just a bigger, faster, better version of Joseph. Did we really need 3 in the box safeties? 

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, holyghost said:

He's a decent in the box safety. Problem is that you can get an average box safety that is woefully undersized and injury prone in any round of the draft, any free agency period, and even undrafted every year. He could not cover, could not cover TEs specifically, had terrible ball skills. He could stop the run. There's no real distinction from him and a guy like Nick Morrow, draft value wise. He had apologists and supporters yearly, but I could never understand it.

People are mad because we let go of a safety that couldn't cover TEs, didn't have single high range, and had mediocre ball skills. 

[holyghost]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

People are mad because we let go of a safety that couldn't cover TEs, didn't have single high range, and had mediocre ball skills. 

I mean, that's the player I saw year in and year out. I wouldn't even say he had mediocre ball skills, they were straight bad. His first INT it looked like he was straining to catch a punt. 

People say he couldn't cover TEs due to his size, but neglect to mention that despite his size deficit sooo many times he was in the wrong position or on the wrong assignment, or late, in coverage. And that was the major issue, not his size.

[NYRaider]

Our safety group is more than fine without Joseph.

Randall at FS who has the range and ball skills to play single high but also the versatility to play in the slot if needed.

Abram at SS who can cover TEs, has sideline to sideline range, and is pretty much a rich man's Karl Joseph. 

Harris at backup FS who has started 20 games in Gunther's defense and has decent ball skills with 5 INT the last two seasons.

Heath at backup SS who has started 44 games the last 3 seasons, is one of the best tackling safeties in the league, and has 8 career INT.

[Dessie]

20 minutes ago, NYRaider said:People are mad because we let go of a safety that couldn't cover TEs, didn't have single high range, and had mediocre ball skills. 

Nah I agree with letting him go we needed an upgrade just saying that ‘he stunk it out’ is complete nonsense.

He was very good in run support, I think the stat was teams averaged 87 yards a game when he was in but 119 yards when he was out. Obviously not all down to him but we were better when he was in. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Dessie

[holyghost]

Just now, NYRaider said:

Our safety group is more than fine without Joseph.

Randall at FS who has the range and ball skills to play single high but also the versatility to play in the slot if needed.

Abram at SS who can cover TEs, has sideline to sideline range, and is pretty much a rich man's Karl Joseph. 

Harris at backup FS who has started 20 games in Gunther's defense and has decent ball skills with 5 INT the last two seasons.

Heath at backup SS who has started 44 games the last 3 seasons, is one of the best tackling safeties in the league, and has 8 career INT.

I wouldn't go that far. Raider fans are consistently guilty of this. This safety group is unproven, at best. Nothing suggests it is a good group or a top unit. The 4 names you named, I coulod easily see with a little bit of bad luck that unit turning into a flaming pile again.

[drfrey13]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

What exactly was he good at though? His reputation coming in was a player that could set the tone with his physical presence as a big hitter. He was never that type of player here because he was too small to do that in the NFL. As you said he also lacked the range to play single high and was also too small and not good enough in man coverage to matchup with TE. So what exactly did/does he do well? Randall has more range and better ball skills to play single high plus is much better in man coverage with his extensive experience playing at CB. Abram has more range deep, is better in man vs TE, and a much more physical presence in the box. 

He was a physical player and set the tone as much as you would expect a single safety too.  Nobody said he was Dawkins or Tomas.  He was great vs the run and playing close to the line of scrimmage.  I never said he lacked range.  In fact he has great range.  He just makes mistakes when playing single high although he started makes some plays with the ball in the air last year.  I completely agree that Randall is a better player for that role.  My issue is not Randall vs Joseph but that Joseph got hosed and we should have resigned him for $2.5 million.  I would rather have Abram and he can not do what Randall does but I would take him over Joyner, Heath, and Harris who are all making more than him.  I would love Joseph as my 3rd safety in Big Nickel formations.

2020 Littleton LB, Kwiatkowski LB (finally spelled his name right without looking it up), Mullen CB, Draft CB, Joseph S, Randall S/Slot, and Abram S.

vs

2019 Whitehead LB, Morrow LB, Mullen CB, Worley or Conley CB, RIley or Worley S, Joyner S/Slot, Harris S  (There are  only 2 things I like about 2019.  Mullen and no Nelson)