NYRaider Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 There's no reason to even debate any of this. KJ is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 50 minutes ago, holyghost said: I wouldn't go that far. Raider fans are consistently guilty of this. This safety group is unproven, at best. Nothing suggests it is a good group or a top unit. The 4 names you named, I coulod easily see with a little bit of bad luck that unit turning into a flaming pile again. I said our group is fine, never did I say it was a top unit. Randall when healthy has shown he is a good FS with the range to play single high. Heath started every game he played in over the last 3 years with Dallas and is one of the best tackling safeties in the league. Abram is essentially a rookie first round pick and Harris has started 20 games in Gunther's system and has made some plays for us. I'd still like to see a rookie added in the third, either Terrell Burgess or Ashtyn Davis. But that safety group is the best group that we've had here in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, drfrey13 said: I would take him over Joyner, Heath, and Harris who are all making more than him. I would love Joseph as my 3rd safety in Big Nickel formations. Meh. I think that we made the right decision. Joyner was one of the best safeties in the league with the Rams and an above average slot player. Hopefully the staff will use him in more of a traditional safety role this year if/when a young guy can take his spot in the slot. Jeff Heath was the best tackling safety in the entire league last season so as a 3rd safety in a big nickel formation he also fits there better than Joseph. And Harris is bigger, cheaper, a little more rangier, and has better ball skills than Joseph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agarcia34 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 KJ best ability was to play near the LOS and blitz. Raiders drafted Abram to do that and to give them better size at that position. He had no role with this team. His value with this team is at zero. Never got the KJ love but I also don't get the Hall, Hurst and Harris love that most have so idk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Meh. I think that we made the right decision. Joyner was one of the best safeties in the league with the Rams and an above average slot player. Hopefully the staff will use him in more of a traditional safety role this year if/when a young guy can take his spot in the slot. Jeff Heath was the best tackling safety in the entire league last season so as a 3rd safety in a big nickel formation he also fits there better than Joseph. And Harris is bigger, cheaper, a little more rangier, and has better ball skills than Joseph. We can agree to disagree because there is no way of proving my argument. Like you said he is gone. We look ten times better than last year with the additions. My only issue was the Joyner vs Joseph (I understand they have different roles but the other pieces in place allow us to have either player). I do not even think Joyner was average in the slot and if we can take care of our CB#2 deficiency then you will see Joyner attacked a lot more next year. Only 2 things I did not like about Mayock was the #4 pick and Joyner's contract. Joyner should not be making half of what he is and the structure of the contract meant we had to keep him and let go of Joseph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, drfrey13 said: We can agree to disagree because there is no way of proving my argument. Like you said he is gone. We look ten times better than last year with the additions. My only issue was the Joyner vs Joseph (I understand they have different roles but the other pieces in place allow us to have either player). I do not even think Joyner was average in the slot and if we can take care of our CB#2 deficiency then you will see Joyner attacked a lot more next year. Only 2 things I did not like about Mayock was the #4 pick and Joyner's contract. Joyner should not be making half of what he is and the structure of the contract meant we had to keep him and let go of Joseph. Joyner with the Rams was one of the best FS in the league and an above average slot player. Would love to see Randall/Joyner playing deep with Abram in the box as our big nickel this year. I think that'd cover up a lot of our coverage issues. Plus having Abram in the box gives you the coverage and range of a safety with the hitting/tackling of a LB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, NYRaider said: Joyner with the Rams was one of the best FS in the league and an above average slot player. Would love to see Randall/Joyner playing deep with Abram in the box as our big nickel this year. I think that'd cover up a lot of our coverage issues. Plus having Abram in the box gives you the coverage and range of a safety with the hitting/tackling of a LB. If they move Joyner back to safety I will give it another shot but I do not agree with Joyner being in the slot full time or that he was good. Quick question. If Joyner had zero dead money, without the option of restructuring, would you keep him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Joyner with the Rams was one of the best FS in the league and an above average slot player. Would love to see Randall/Joyner playing deep with Abram in the box as our big nickel this year. I think that'd cover up a lot of our coverage issues. Plus having Abram in the box gives you the coverage and range of a safety with the hitting/tackling of a LB. I'd like to see Abram and Littleton on 3rd down in some coverages as "LBs" and put Joyner/Randall at safety and bring in an additional third corner for very obvious passing situations. That being said, we need to get those 2 CBs, whether its draft or otherwise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 I’m very interested to see how Joyner player with the Rams at FS and slot CB in 17-18.... I’m going to go back and catch a bunch of games of GamePass and takes notes. I will say while he wasn’t good last year, the few times I saw Joyner pop on film was when he was driving forward on the ball. I also thought I remember him dropping off his coverage of his assigned player and deflect a ball thrown to someone else. he just struck me as a guy Whose better reading the QB and jumping a route in front of him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, drfrey13 said: If Joyner had zero dead money, without the option of restructuring, would you keep him? If anyone answers yes to this their lying. He’d have been gone on the flight home week 17 lol... might not have even been allowed on team plane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, holyghost said: I wouldn't go that far. Raider fans are consistently guilty of this. This safety group is unproven, at best. Nothing suggests it is a good group or a top unit. The 4 names you named, I coulod easily see with a little bit of bad luck that unit turning into a flaming pile again. It’s how well they see and communicate as a unit that will dictate success. Randall is an upgrade at FS he is also an upgrade to the slot and can be in a number of positions in nickel/dime packages so he is a valuable chess piece. His Ball skills and attitude are welcomed as he will hold others accountable and be wanting to showcase his skills for a long term contract. Be that for us or other teams. Joyner did not produce to his contract and would have been cut. He will probably improve because Randall takes over as the vet leader. Joyner is a chess piece that was exposed but with Randall they can be used interchangeably and confuse less experienced QBs. (I’m concerned that Rams players were better because of Donald hopefully Littleton’s production doesn’t drop as bad as Joyner’s did) Abram is the alpha dog leader but needs the experience. Hopefully he and Randall feed off each other but keep their heads in the game. Availability is #1 ability be that injury or ejection. The Enforcer and intimidating presence roaming the field. With our depth he could be either S or LB to add to Offense’s confusion. However... Harris is valuable depth and performed the best of our Safety group last year. He will create competition and might start. Abram on Hard Knocks might have pissed off Gruden. Abram will get lots of playing time but might not get the start. Not handing him the job because of where he was drafted and needing to not make practice more physical than the Pro Bowl. I like what he brings (Abram) but I won’t be surprised to see Harris get the starting nod for being a ‘grinder’ Speaking of grinders we got Heath who I didn’t expect at all. Brings great value to ST and starting experience but will probably see the least amount of playing time. That is our S depth as Joyner can add depth there. As far as slot, I expect Amik will beat out the above guys but we haven’t made that pick yet. Double dipping at CB is good with me if this guy is in rounds 3-4. CB is for another discussion. Edited April 14, 2020 by G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, NYRaider said: Our safety group is more than fine without Joseph. Randall at FS who has the range and ball skills to play single high but also the versatility to play in the slot if needed. Abram at SS who can cover TEs, has sideline to sideline range, and is pretty much a rich man's Karl Joseph. Harris at backup FS who has started 20 games in Gunther's defense and has decent ball skills with 5 INT the last two seasons. Heath at backup SS who has started 44 games the last 3 seasons, is one of the best tackling safeties in the league, and has 8 career INT. Abram is yet to be decided, he only played one game so how on earth can anyone state what he can and can't do? I'm in wait and see mode on both him and Randall. Have an ominous feeling both will underwhelm sadly Edited April 14, 2020 by Darbsk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agarcia34 Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Not surprising with the way Mayock viewed Randall coming out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolni Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 11 hours ago, agarcia34 said: Not surprising with the way Mayock viewed Randall coming out To be fair, he did not say that. He said he will have a chance to play next to Abram nad the others... Pretty obvious that he has a good shot, but Vinny jumped the gun with his tweet IMO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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