Draft Day Two Thread

[JaguarCrazy2832]

2 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I like Shenault (gotta be approved medically though) and Pittman a lot too. Hamler is a nice change of pace guy too (although his hands worry me a little).

But yeah, gotta help Minshew. OL or WR. Maybe RB but I'd prefer to wait.

I feel like Shenault just feels like a repeat of Lee(not on the field but the medical stuff) we'd like someone with less red flags there

[Tugboat]

Just now, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Mims/Higgins would be great adds. Who else do you guys want? Jones/Cleveland?

Pittman and Shenault would be my wants if they're going WR.

If they were to go outside the WR box to get a weapon for Minshew, i wouldn't mind if they went with Cole Kmet.  I really like him as a TE.  Velcro hands and just finds all the holes in coverage.  A lot of people don't seem to be as high on him though, and you could probably wait.

[.Buzz]

2 minutes ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

I feel like Shenault just feels like a repeat of Lee(not on the field but the medical stuff) we'd like someone with less red flags there

He's a super violent runner and I just feel like is a playmaker with the ball in his hands. He's just super raw.

We need those types (if you think he can stay healthy).

[pwny]

2 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

The three 2nds, sure...that's some investment in the position.  Kinda hard to really count Day 3 picks as any kind of real big investment though.  Those things are basically just flyers.  Though Dave does often seem to act like he's actually plugging holes with them.

Dave has been here for 7 drafts + a 1st round.  Obviously Coughlin was a factor in some of those years, but even if we take away those "1st round picks" of Fournette/Taven/Allen...It's like 21 picks in Day 1 and 2 that can be generally attributed to Dave to date?  And he's spent...3 of them on WRs, and zero 1sts.  That's not nothing...but it's not exactly much either.  Plinking away in the 4th and 5th rounds doesn't really cut it as real "investment" for me.

 

That said...i wouldn't expect a for sure WR pick today.  Though i wouldn't rule it out either.

Again though, what has he invested more on in the draft? 

CB, EDGE, RB, OT and that's really it. 

Second round picks have been: S, WR, WR, RB, LB, OT, WR, OT

Third round picks have been: CB, IOL, IOL, EDGE, EDGE, S, TE

Fourth round selections have been: WR, CB, S, DT, WR, OT, LB

He's made 22 selections between the second and fourth rounds. Five of them have been WR. The only other position group with more than two is OT with three. He hasn't neglected to address the position, it's easily a top 5 group that he's addressed, despite the fact that he's never spent a first on it. 

Plus the whole starting point of this argument is that he won't spend middle round picks on a WR because he doesn't do that when it's obvious that he does do that, frequently.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

1 minute ago, .Buzz said:

He's a super violent runner and I just feel like is a playmaker with the ball in his hands. He's just super raw.

We need those types (if you think he can stay healthy).

I think violent runner and injury concerns are a bad combo if you're hoping his injuries are behind him

[Tugboat]

6 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I like Shenault (gotta be approved medically though) and Pittman a lot too. Hamler is a nice change of pace guy too (although his hands worry me a little).

But yeah, gotta help Minshew. OL or WR. Maybe RB but I'd prefer to wait.

Yeah.  Hamler's speed is intriguing, but the hands just really kill any interest for me.  If you can't reliable get the ball in his hands because they're questionable and he's not great at the catch point...a lot of that speed just kinda burns up in the atmosphere.  Tyreek he ain't...though some team is going to probably overdraft him thinking he might be, because he's small and fast.

[pwny]

8 minutes ago, DuvalsKing said:

You’re asking me questions and have yet answer the questions that I asked you previously. Taking a shot at a wide receiver in rounds 2-7.. isn’t addressing the situation if year after year you use the same tactic but it hasn’t resulted in any viable picks that you can look at outside of Chark and Allen. So year after year we’re stuck playing the lottery. You may consider drafting wide out rounds 2-7 as an investment. I don’t this teams ability to evaluate talent at the skill position wide out and running back should be in question because they have yet to produce any after the many draft picks spent and free agents signed in 8 yrs what do you have? Chark? Fournette wasn’t really Caldwell’s pick so we can’t use that.. Talk to me.

I haven't answered questions because they're completely irrelevant to the discussion we're having. 

But I'll humor you. Yes, the players they've drafted suck. That has vero relevance to whether they will continue to try to address those positions that they routinely address but you are claiming they don't address. 

And I really don't care whether you think spending a second on a WR is investing or not. You said they won't spend a second or couple fourths on a WR because they don't invest in WR. Now you're changing the argument completely to say "well they do spend seconds and fourths on WR, but those aren't investments". Which is a complete contradiction to your original claim that it doens't make sense for them to address WR today.

[Tugboat]

2 minutes ago, pwny said:

Again though, what has he invested more on in the draft? 

CB, EDGE, RB, OT and that's really it. 

Second round picks have been: S, WR, WR, RB, LB, OT, WR, OT

Third round picks have been: CB, IOL, IOL, EDGE, EDGE, S, TE

Fourth round selections have been: WR, CB, S, DT, WR, OT, LB

He's made 22 selections between the second and fourth rounds. Five of them have been WR. The only other position group with more than two is OT with three. He hasn't neglected to address the position, it's easily a top 5 group that he's addressed, despite the fact that he's never spent a first on it. 

Plus the whole starting point of this argument is that he won't spend middle round picks on a WR because he doesn't do that when it's obvious that he does do that, frequently.

I just don't think 2-4 is really the applicable "grouping" of picks for "significant investment".  Days 1 and 2 are where you get the guys you can reasonably expect to be potential starters.  Day 3 is...developmental projects, depth guys, STers.  Sometimes those guys exceed all expectations and become starters or even superstars...but it's not a big "investment" at the draft.  If you thought those guys were reasonable bets to be starters, they'd be going on Day 1 or 2.

 

You're also ignoring all the investment he's made in other positions via Free Agency on top of that.  During his tenure, they've spent the GDP of half of Africa bringing in various guys at positions like OL, DL, DB.  He's spent next to nothing at all on bringing in external WR.

So you'd expect given the investment in FA Veterans at those other positions...he would be spending relatively less on them in the draft.  But that hasn't really borne out.

[DuvalsKing]

3 minutes ago, pwny said:

I haven't answered questions because they're completely irrelevant to the discussion we're having. 

But I'll humor you. Yes, the players they've drafted suck. That has vero relevance to whether they will continue to try to address those positions that they routinely address but you are claiming they don't address. 

And I really don't care whether you think spending a second on a WR is investing or not. You said they won't spend a second or couple fourths on a WR because they don't invest in WR. Now you're changing the argument completely to say "well they do spend seconds and fourths on WR, but those aren't investments". Which is a complete contradiction to your original claim that it doens't make sense for them to address WR today.

Going off Caldwell’s build it makes no sense to reach for a wideout just to draft wideout for the sake of drafting the position. The wideout position is deep remember so get the football players.

[pwny]

4 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

I just don't think 2-4 is really the applicable "grouping" of picks for "significant investment".  Days 1 and 2 are where you get the guys you can reasonably expect to be potential starters.  Day 3 is...developmental projects, depth guys, STers.  Sometimes those guys exceed all expectations and become starters or even superstars...but it's not a big "investment" at the draft.  If you thought those guys were reasonable bets to be starters, they'd be going on Day 1 or 2.

 

You're also ignoring all the investment he's made in other positions via Free Agency on top of that.  During his tenure, they've spent the GDP of half of Africa bringing in various guys at positions like OL, DL, DB.  He's spent next to nothing at all on bringing in external WR.

So you'd expect given the investment in FA Veterans at those other positions...he would be spending relatively less on them in the draft.  But that hasn't really borne out.

Sure. But you're missing the context of this discussion being that someone said spending seconds and fourths on WR isn't what Caldwell does. 

[Tugboat]

2 minutes ago, DuvalsKing said:

Going off Caldwell’s build it makes no sense to reach for a wideout just to draft wideout for the sake of drafting the position. The wideout position is deep remember so get the football players.

The whole idea of Caldwell not going WR in the first though, was essentially that this is probably what they view as the meat of the draft for WRs.  That there will be guys they like 80% as much or whatever, available Today.

[.Buzz]

Just now, Tugboat said:

The whole idea of Caldwell not going WR in the first though, was essentially that this is probably what they view as the meat of the draft for WRs.  That there will be guys they like 80% as much or whatever, available Today.

The whole point of this discussion starting from the beginning.

I have no idea what the hell happened the past two pages.

[pwny]

4 minutes ago, DuvalsKing said:

Going off Caldwell’s build it makes no sense to reach for a wideout just to draft wideout for the sake of drafting the position. The wideout position is deep remember so get the football players.

If the position is deep enough that you're now saying that you can get them later, why are you arguing that 2nds aren't "significant firepower" to spend on one?

[DuvalsKing]

Just now, Tugboat said:

The whole idea of Caldwell not going WR in the first though, was essentially that this is probably what they view as the meat of the draft for WRs.  That there will be guys they like 80% as much or whatever, available Today.

My problem with Caldwell’s build is he’s not learning from his mistakes.. but I admire a guy willing to go out on his sword. 

[Tugboat]

2 minutes ago, pwny said:

Sure. But you're missing the context of this discussion being that someone said spending seconds and fourths on WR isn't what Caldwell does. 

Okay.  Well, i honestly had trouble following a lot of that tbh.  I'll just say, regardless of the semantic details...i do at least somewhat agree with what seemed to be a general premise there, in that Dave has overall probably kinda underinvested in the WR position.