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New Orleans Saints Eat the W and sign QB Winston for 1 year

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Pretty sure I called for bringing in Winston...

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I honestly was shocked Tommy was drafted, there is no way he should have been drafted based on what he did on the field in college.  He was drafted to replace Taysom I assume.   Stevens is a good athlete, has flashes at times but to me no way they took him for anything but a replacement for Taysom, and maybe his contract demands were not as much after it all and they came together on a deal obviously.

Tommy will not make the roster, but to me he was absolute drafted in an effort to replace him but clearly now they do not have to.

I think you're being too critical of a late day 3 pick. At that point in the draft you are pretty much just getting a guy you are hoping you can develop, as these guys at the end of the draft all have some sort of flaw. Tommy has excellent athletic traits to work with and potentially mold in a number of ways. The Taysom Hill everyone saw as a dangerous multi-purpose weapon this past year isn't the same Taysom Hill from a few years ago. For example, it took time for him to learn the nuances of being a threat in the receiving game, which is why he is coming off his biggest year in that regard this past season. So in regards to Tommy, he may not pan out like most 7th round picks, which is essentially no risk, but if Payton feels like he can develop into a similar gadget player like Taysom, then that is most definitely more than worth the pick in the 7th round. It sounds like Tommy has already had some experience in a gadget type role as he was utilized in the receiving game at Penn State. Maybe he isn't used exactly like Hill and we just develop him as a TE/H-Back like a Chris Cooley type. All I know is 6'4" 247lbs running a 4.49 40 isn't all that common of an athletic profile.

Then there's this interview by Sean Payton stating that he likely would have signed elsewhere as an Undrafted Free Agent.

 

Edited by tyler735

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We got Taysom off a practice squad for pennies on the dollar, added water, and he grew into a valuable asset.

So why not draft Tommy in a late round (which the Saints don't really value) and try to do the same.

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48 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

We got Taysom off a practice squad for pennies on the dollar, added water, and he grew into a valuable asset.

So why not draft Tommy in a late round (which the Saints don't really value) and try to do the same.

This.  Not everyone has to come in and be a key player in teams success from day 1.  I know we've been spoiled the past few years with guys like Ramzy, Lattimore, MT, Williams, Kamara, McCoy, etc etc etc but we are at a point where we need to look for some developmental guys too becuase we aren't going to be able to afford everyone otherwise.

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I had been dreading the post Brees QB situation, and had Brees retired this year would have actually liked to have seen what Bridgewater could do for us as I liked what I saw from him as a starter in this offense. Obviously that ship has sailed. I am honestly feeling pretty good about our post Brees situation at this point (Or at least as good as one could feel after losing a top 5 All-Time QB), I like giving Winston a low risk/high reward type deal. If he shows some positive strides in this new system, and maybe harnesses some of that gunslinger mentality we may actually have something to work with going forward. I'm not getting my hopes up that high on that coming to fruition. I have pretty significant doubts Taysom Hill is ever going to be our starting QB unless someone gets injured.

What really excites me is that we have Michael Thomas locked up, a very young but talented OL for the future, hopefully can lock up Kamara to a new contact, and have a defense filled with talented players that are mostly on the younger side. In other words, this is a team that post Brees (likely his last year) will be turn key ready to be a playoff contender with a competent QB. Maybe that is Winston, but if not, we for the first time in years have a draft pick in every round next year. I wouldn't be shocked to see us make a Ricky Williams type trade to grab out franchise QB next year and have said QB land in about as good of a situation as a rookie QB could ever hope for. So essentially this Winston move gives us a 1 year rental to see if he has the goods, if not, we are in a good spot to make a move for a QB next year in the draft.

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2 hours ago, Raves said:

This.  Not everyone has to come in and be a key player in teams success from day 1.  I know we've been spoiled the past few years with guys like Ramzy, Lattimore, MT, Williams, Kamara, McCoy, etc etc etc but we are at a point where we need to look for some developmental guys too becuase we aren't going to be able to afford everyone otherwise.

Not only that but Hill didn't come in and become an offensive weapon in preseason. He was/is a stud ST player initially. How many times has Hill made an impact as a STer. Simply put this move could be to have someone take over Hill's duties as a STer and let Hill be used primarily on offense. If he develops into a Hill like weapon, fantastic, but at the very least if it keeps Hill fresh for offensive downs, then that's fine too.

At the end of the day he is a 7th rounder. I don't care if he has similar tools to Hill, he's a 7th rounder. Adrian Arrington was a 7th round WR with similar tools to Colston, and didn't last. If the guy can come in and help on ST, I'll be more than happy.

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8 hours ago, tyler735 said:

I think you're being too critical of a late day 3 pick. At that point in the draft you are pretty much just getting a guy you are hoping you can develop, as these guys at the end of the draft all have some sort of flaw. Tommy has excellent athletic traits to work with and potentially mold in a number of ways. The Taysom Hill everyone saw as a dangerous multi-purpose weapon this past year isn't the same Taysom Hill from a few years ago. For example, it took time for him to learn the nuances of being a threat in the receiving game, which is why he is coming off his biggest year in that regard this past season. So in regards to Tommy, he may not pan out like most 7th round picks, which is essentially no risk, but if Payton feels like he can develop into a similar gadget player like Taysom, then that is most definitely more than worth the pick in the 7th round. It sounds like Tommy has already had some experience in a gadget type role as he was utilized in the receiving game at Penn State. Maybe he isn't used exactly like Hill and we just develop him as a TE/H-Back like a Chris Cooley type. All I know is 6'4" 247lbs running a 4.49 40 isn't all that common of an athletic profile.

Then there's this interview by Sean Payton stating that he likely would have signed elsewhere as an Undrafted Free Agent.

 

Great, thanks.  I still find it odd that they make the move then next day sign Winston and then sign Taysom Hill to a what 2 year $21 million contract.  And isn't it cheaper to get a UDFA than a 7th round free agent?  No way he makes the roster, and on the Practice Squad if he is indeed that good and other teams wanted him, they could just sign him off of there.  Maybe they are thinking TE with him though and that could keep him on the roster, who knows, but with drafting Trautman who is a stud not sure that happens but will see.  

So you are saying Hill is declining physically?  Then why give him all that money?  He looked great against the Vikings in the playoffs and was a massive part of that game, so not sure he is declined, but again I agree TE I never thought of and might be how he sticks on the roster potentially.  Yes at Penn State he was in on trick plays and ran the ball well, but like Taysom in college he got injured a lot, not as much as Hill did but got injured a few times I remember.  

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1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

Great, thanks.  I still find it odd that they make the move then next day sign Winston and then sign Taysom Hill to a what 2 year $21 million contract.  And isn't it cheaper to get a UDFA than a 7th round free agent?

I don’t think the Winston signing moves the gauges one way or another here.

We weren’t going into the season with a Backup “QB” that would leave other voids on the offense (TE/Slot/H-Back) if he was asked to start. Because then we’re not only playing with a backup QB, but a backup at all the other positions Taysom plays as well.

As far as I’m concerned Taysom and Winston don’t play the same position, I think most Saints fans feel the same way about that too.

And yes it might be cheaper to sign him as a UDFA than a 7th rounder but were talking about what m assuming amounts to less than 1% of the cap regardless, so that’s really a non-issue IMO.

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

No way he makes the roster, and on the Practice Squad if he is indeed that good and other teams wanted him, they could just sign him off of there.  Maybe they are thinking TE with him though and that could keep him on the roster, who knows, but with drafting Trautman who is a stud not sure that happens but will see.

Sean Payton loves Josh Hill and he still has 2 years left on his deal. Between Taysom Hill and Josh Hill we have two rotational TEs behind Cook... then there is Trautman too.

Josh Hill isn’t untouchable by any means, but he’s got the coach on his side right now. He’ll be a tough out in camp. I don’t see Stevens making the roster this year, maybe on IR. We’re good at stashing guys there with a sore ankle. 

If Stevens plays well enough in camp that Payton is worried someone will offer them a spot on their active roster, he’ll probably end up shopping him for a late round pick rather than a PS stash. If Stevens doesn’t look good enough that he could bring in a late round pick, nobody cares if he walks on to another team anyways.

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

So you are saying Hill is declining physically?  Then why give him all that money?  He looked great against the Vikings in the playoffs and was a massive part of that game, so not sure he is declined, but again I agree TE I never thought of and might be how he sticks on the roster potentially.  Yes at Penn State he was in on trick plays and ran the ball well, but like Taysom in college he got injured a lot, not as much as Hill did but got injured a few times I remember.  

I don’t think Taysom is declining physically right now... but he’s going 30 years old before his next meaningful snap. The athleticism that makes him so special is definitely on its downswing.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dome said:

I don’t think the Winston signing moves the gauges one way or another here.

We weren’t going into the season with a Backup “QB” that would leave other voids on the offense (TE/Slot/H-Back) if he was asked to start. Because then we’re not only playing with a backup QB, but a backup at all the other positions Taysom plays as well.

As far as I’m concerned Taysom and Winston don’t play the same position, I think most Saints fans feel the same way about that too.

And yes it might be cheaper to sign him as a UDFA than a 7th rounder but were talking about what m assuming amounts to less than 1% of the cap regardless, so that’s really a non-issue IMO.

Sean Payton loves Josh Hill and he still has 2 years left on his deal. Between Taysom Hill and Josh Hill we have two rotational TEs behind Cook... then there is Trautman too.

Josh Hill isn’t untouchable by any means, but he’s got the coach on his side right now. He’ll be a tough out in camp. I don’t see Stevens making the roster this year, maybe on IR. We’re good at stashing guys there with a sore ankle. 

If Stevens plays well enough in camp that Payton is worried someone will offer them a spot on their active roster, he’ll probably end up shopping him for a late round pick rather than a PS stash. If Stevens doesn’t look good enough that he could bring in a late round pick, nobody cares if he walks on to another team anyways.

I don’t think Taysom is declining physically right now... but he’s going 30 years old before his next meaningful snap. The athleticism that makes him so special is definitely on its downswing.

 

 

Good for Taysom, honestly he is lucky he has had any career at all with the injuries he had in college, they were pretty awful and he missed a ton of games because of it.  Seriously though he must be one of the highest paid gimmick players in the history of the NFL.  He does not lead the team in receptions, tackles on special teams, rushing TDs, nothing.  He is just an interesting teammate who is willing to do basically anything which is great, but not sure it is worth that kind of cash.  Good luck signing all those young stars on the Saints in the next two years after spending money like that.  

Just saying as a teammate I would be a little pissed if Taysom Hill is the 4th highest paid player on the team based on average salary for next year.  That is crazy but great for him and his family.  One year for $16 + Million, I would be pissed if I was Janoris Jenkins who actually starts and only gets around half that a year.  Jenkins what plays more snaps in one game than Taysom Hill will play in three or four games?  Does Hill play every special teams punt and or kick?  That might get his snap count up a little then.  

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Good for Taysom, honestly he is lucky he has had any career at all with the injuries he had in college, they were pretty awful and he missed a ton of games because of it.  Seriously though he must be one of the highest paid gimmick players in the history of the NFL.  He does not lead the team in receptions, tackles on special teams, rushing TDs, nothing.  He is just an interesting teammate who is willing to do basically anything which is great, but not sure it is worth that kind of cash.  Good luck signing all those young stars on the Saints in the next two years after spending money like that.

FWIW saints have over $100m in projected space for 2022

Next year we have several big contracts we can unload or restructure to get the guys signed we need to. 

seems like every single year saints fans get told we’re screwed with our cap and every year we remain competitive and bring in guys nobody thought we could afford anyways. 

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Just saying as a teammate I would be a little pissed if Taysom Hill is the 4th highest paid player on the team based on average salary for next year. 
 

If they were as important to the team and the locker room as Taysom was, they’d be getting paid too. Assuming they were in a position to sign a new contract or walk.

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That is crazy but great for him and his family.  One year for $16 + Million, I would be pissed if I was Janoris Jenkins who actually starts and only gets around half that a year.

Janoris is fine, but he doesn’t have near the impact that Taysom does. Saints fans were about 50/50 on asking Jenkins to take a paycut or just cutting him loose. Nobody wanted Taysom gone.

There are players in the league that can replace Jenkins, and they are a LOT easier find than a guy who can replace Taysom.

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Jenkins what plays more snaps in one game than Taysom Hill will play in three or four games?

The snaps Taysom play are far more important and generally quite productive. Hard to compare offense vs defense, even harder to compare a weapon/shot play specialist who is all upside to a full time player that isn’t as talented but still consistent.

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Does Hill play every special teams punt and or kick?  That might get his snap count up a little then.  

241 offensive snaps last year (116 at WR, 85 at TE, 41 at QB and the rest are H-Back/FB ) resulting in 21 catches (24 targets), 31 rushes and 6 pass attempts.

287 ST snaps last year, mostly on kickoff coverage and punt blocking/coverage 

Edited by Dome

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On 4/26/2020 at 2:39 PM, Ozzy said:

Then why did they draft him?  For fun?  Seems odd they draft him then day after sign Taysom Hill and Winston.  Clearly something went down there.  I watched Tommy Stevens during his college career, and nothing about his game says he is our QB for the future, he is an athletic QB who can run and maybe do something Taysom Hill used to do.  But turns out that is not needed and it was a wasted pick.  Not a huge deal though obviously.

 

Then again they have an amazing UDFA class like usual so that helps, they got Joe Bachie and that kid could make their roster and is a hell of a player.  By the way Malcolm Perry would have been a much better gimmick type QB threat than Tommy Stevens, and he was drafted after Tommy but all of that does not matter now.  Still there is nothing about Tommy Steven's game that says I can be a QB backup in the NFL at all, so it was a big surprise he was picked by anyone honestly.  

They made him send video of himself running routes before the draft.

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3 hours ago, Dome said:

FWIW saints have over $100m in projected space for 2022

Next year we have several big contracts we can unload or restructure to get the guys signed we need to. 

seems like every single year saints fans get told we’re screwed with our cap and every year we remain competitive and bring in guys nobody thought we could afford anyways. 

If they were as important to the team and the locker room as Taysom was, they’d be getting paid too. Assuming they were in a position to sign a new contract or walk.

Janoris is fine, but he doesn’t have near the impact that Taysom does. Saints fans were about 50/50 on asking Jenkins to take a paycut or just cutting him loose. Nobody wanted Taysom gone.

There are players in the league that can replace Jenkins, and they are a LOT easier find than a guy who can replace Taysom.

The snaps Taysom play are far more important and generally quite productive. Hard to compare offense vs defense, even harder to compare a weapon/shot play specialist who is all upside to a full time player that isn’t as talented but still consistent.

241 offensive snaps last year (116 at WR, 85 at TE, 41 at QB and the rest are H-Back/FB ) resulting in 21 catches (24 targets), 31 rushes and 6 pass attempts.

287 ST snaps last year, mostly on kickoff coverage and punt blocking/coverage 

Thanks for all the information, especially about the snaps.  But you include special teams and offensive snaps, total around 528, that is not the range of 800 to 1000 for a standard starting player in the NFL, and those numbers might even be a little on the low side.  Yet he gets paid like a starting LB, DE, RB and some lower tear QBs.  Again great for him and yes it does not include his off the field leadership which I am sure is great.

By the way looked it up, apparently JT Gray on the Saints tied for the lead the NFL in special teams tackles with 16.  Taysom Hill was not on the list of top 100 players in special teams tackles and is not some great return man either obviously.  But good he is out there and it is work being done.   Clearly being a gunner is a lot harder than a blocker on punt coverage but just my opinion.  I assume Taysom is a blocker or protector for the punter, not a gunner.    

 

Will see if they can pay all that youth, already lost Vonn Bell which is a massive loss I think.  Still they got a hell of a OL so it is all good, that OL is rock solid and only got better with Ruiz now.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Thanks for all the information, especially about the snaps.  But you include special teams and offensive snaps, total around 528, that is not the range of 800 to 1000 for a standard starting player in the NFL, and those numbers might even be a little on the low side.  Yet he gets paid like a starting LB, DE, RB and some lower tear QBs.  Again great for him and yes it does not include his off the field leadership which I am sure is great.

I think just having the versatility of a guy like Taysom as your gadget guy, and knowing he can be your emergency QB who is still noticeably improving each year is worth the extra scratch. Defenses change the way they play when Taysom is in the game, even if he's a receiver and even if he's no being targeted. He helps even when he isn't changing the ball. If you put a CB on him for the speed, he might take a direct snap and run that CB right over if he finds him in the open field. If you put a thumper S or a LB on him he's probably gonna run right past them. If you try to knock him at the line to slow his release you're just giving Brees more time to get the ball to Thomas/Kamara/Cook. He's tough to plan against in the role he has now, you can't ignore him and most teams don't have the type of size/speed you need to take him on 1v1.

Saints went 13-3 last year and as the year went on Taysom was our most consistent skills player not named Michael Thomas. You know what you're getting week in and week out with Taysom. You can't say that about Kamara, Cook, 3Quan or even Brees. Taysom is steady eddy. 

I think that's why it's so shocking for people who aren't Saints fans to see us paying him like that. Most of us dont think he's a good QB at all, most of us don't think he's a top receiving or rushing threat either... it's the culmination of everything. You put him on the field and before the formation is revealed the defense is trying to decide to prepare for Taysom the QB or Taysom the WR or Taysom the FB or Taysom the TE.

 

It sounds cliche, but I think if you took the time to do a deep dive Saints film study you might see that he's a much bigger piece to our offense than his numbers show. Taysom coming on the field completely changes what the defense wants to plan for on that play even if Taysom is the 4th read on the play, at the very least they have to adjust for him.

 

What i will say is the more they use him, the more teams are going to find ways to stop him. Payton is going to need to keep innovating. 

 

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By the way looked it up, apparently JT Gray on the Saints tied for the lead the NFL in special teams tackles with 16.  Taysom Hill was not on the list of top 100 players in special teams tackles and is not some great return man either obviously.  But good he is out there and it is work being done.   Clearly being a gunner is a lot harder than a blocker on punt coverage but just my opinion.  I assume Taysom is a blocker or protector for the punter, not a gunner.    

He does a little bit of everything. He's been the protector, the guy who receives the direct snap on fake punts, he's been the gunner and he even punted a handful of times in college (which I still think we'll see in the NFL at some point on a 4th down conversion they don't actually go for). Again it's his versatility and "what's he gonna do?" that makes the defense (or return team in this example_ stop and think. Even if he's not doing anything but punter protection you've got the return team with a couple sets of eyes on him just to be sure. It opens things for the other guys to go make plays.

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Will see if they can pay all that youth, already lost Vonn Bell which is a massive loss I think.  Still they got a hell of a OL so it is all good, that OL is rock solid and only got better with Ruiz now.

Vonn Bell is a big loss but it doesn't have a ton to do with Taysom. We could've kept Taysom at $4.5m this year on his tender and re-signed Bell if it was a priority. 

Bell is a very replaceable player. Nothing about him is "special" even if he's pretty solid. You can find guys like him and it's really not that hard.

Marshon Lattimore, Alvin Kamara, Michael Thomas, Ryan Ramczyk, Taysom Hill? These players all have special attributes, even if that special attribute is just a rare blend of athleticism and smarts.

 

Edited by Dome

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