Everything Offseason Programs (OTA's and more)

[jimkelly02]

12 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I don't think these premium WR will hit the market. @Frankie2Gunz, all the guys you mentioned are an upgrade. But they could demand a lot more $$$.

Ideally Edwards unseats Tyrell this season and we can save the $ to go after a premium DT/S.

I doubt these premium WRs make it to The unrestricted free agent market anyways.

Some will get extended early,,, those that don’t will be franchised or transition tagged.  The only hope we’d have is the Covid cap crunch puts one particular team in a bind and they just have to let a guy walk.  Still not likely, although possible.

Even with Williams at 11M we can afford a higher priced DT.  And 11M for Williams if he can provide something like 70 Rec, 1000yds, 7 TD is more than worth keeping.  Look around the league at other similar guys:

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

The big not mentioned piece here:  ‘21 is the year we make our run, it seems.  Why take the risk dropping a 1000yd WR (in the theory he does provide that this year) for a 2nd year, 3rd rounder?  That’s a big risk; especially!!!!! Considering we’d only be having this debate assuming Carr has a good year with him.  So Carr finally gets his weapons, we make The playoffs, we’re ready to make a run, then we drop a key weapon??? Idk doesn’t seem like good sense to me.  
I think if he plays well, it’s an upgrade only option for replacing him.  Unless.... Edwards proves to be a clear!! Stud.  

[Frankie2Gunz]

21 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

If Juju has a second down year without AB then why would we want to pay him 17M’ish to be our WR1?

To me that’s crazy!  If he has one great year with Ben as QB in a great offense with AB taking all the pressure off him, then when AB leaves and he has 2 down years.... then what does that prove other than he’s not a real WR1?  He’s actually never proven he can be a WR1 at all.  He’s proven he can be an elite WR2 with the best WR1 in the game taking attention and coverage away for him.

but I don’t think Juju has a down year.  I think he comes back strong, albeit not as strong as ‘18.  If i had to guess on the spot he should get 90-95 catches for 1200.

My point is that he is a top tier, high end number 2 and with the weapons we have he could put up solid numbers with other weapons around him like Jacobs, Ruggs, Waller, Edwards and Renfrow. 

Is 17 million number 1 money in the current market?  I don't think so and that would be 3 less than Cooper and Juju is a better WR.  If a 29 YO TW is worth 11.5 as an injury prone, slightly above average number 2, I don't see any issue with paying a 24 year old JuJu 5.5 million more to be our around 90 catch target hog.

[jimkelly02]

30 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

My point is that he is a top tier, high end number 2 and with the weapons we have he could put up solid numbers with other weapons around him like Jacobs, Ruggs, Waller, Edwards and Renfrow. 

Is 17 million number 1 money in the current market?  I don't think so and that would be 3 less than Cooper and Juju is a better WR.  If a 29 YO TW is worth 11.5 as an injury prone, slightly above average number 2, I don't see any issue with paying a 24 year old JuJu 5.5 million more to be our around 90 catch target hog.

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

Cap ain’t going up,,,, their won’t much be inflation on these numbers next year.  
 

JuJu, if he has another down year, is a better WR than Cooper? Um no!

i think your misconstruing the argument.  If JuJu balls out this year then he’d be worth paying that to get an upgrade.  But if he doesn’t then heck no!  If he has 1 great year then 2 down years then you don’t pay him top WR1 money: he’s proven not to be a top WR1.  

the argument of paying 5.5m (17M) for a better WR2 but not a WR1 is a horrible idea.

you only pay 17M for a good WR1.

Edited July 20, 2020 by jimkelly02

[Frankie2Gunz]

4 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

Cap ain’t going up,,,, their won’t much be inflation on these numbers next year.  
 

JuJu, if he has another down year, is a better WR than Cooper? Um no!

i think your misconstruing the argument.  If JuJu balls out this year then he’d be worth paying that to get an upgrade.  But if he doesn’t then heck no!  If he has 1 great year then 2 down years then you don’t pay him top WR1 money: he’s proven not to be a top WR1.  

the argument of paying 5.5m (17M) for a better WR2 but not a WR1 is a horrible idea.

you only pay 17M for a good WR1.

JuJu is a better WR than Cooper but neither is an elite number 1.  Cooper is soft and has questionable work ethic and hands, hence he was benched during a critical 4th quarter game last season against Philly.  If that doesn't scream out fraud then I don't know what to say....

They are both complimentary pieces who need others around them to take the heat off.  So you would happily pay TW at 30 years old 11.5 but you would not be happy paying JuJu 5.5 million more at 24 years old?   JuJu can be our target hog that we lack and would further open up the field for Ruggs, Waller, Edwards and Renfrow.  I don't see how paying him 5.5 million more than a 30 year old TW would be a bad thing.  

[Frankie2Gunz]

42 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

Cap ain’t going up,,,, their won’t much be inflation on these numbers next year.  
 

JuJu, if he has another down year, is a better WR than Cooper? Um no!

i think your misconstruing the argument.  If JuJu balls out this year then he’d be worth paying that to get an upgrade.  But if he doesn’t then heck no!  If he has 1 great year then 2 down years then you don’t pay him top WR1 money: he’s proven not to be a top WR1.  

the argument of paying 5.5m (17M) for a better WR2 but not a WR1 is a horrible idea.

you only pay 17M for a good WR1.

A down year has to be put in context and not just based upon numbers.  If Big Ben goes down with another injury or comes back and his arm is shot that will certainly affect JuJu's numbers.  Also the other surrounding pieces around him will affect his numbers as well, as I have stated he is not an elite #1 who can do it on his own.  If no other WR can step up in Pit this year to take some heat off of Juju they will double him all season and that will adversely affect his numbers.  He is a young solid WR who can be a 90 catch target hog in our O, I'm optimistic that Edwards can be that guy but as I have stated in prior posts if one of our key WR's goes down and we move on from Williams our corp is once again bottom of the barrel.  

Edited July 20, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz

[jimkelly02]

17 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

A down year has to be put in context and not just based upon numbers.  If Big Ben goes down with another injury or comes back and his arm is shot that will certainly affect JuJu's numbers.  Also the other surrounding pieces around him will affect his numbers as well, as I have stated he is not an elite #1 who can do it on his own.  If no other WR can step up in Pit this year to take some heat off of Juju they will double him all season and that will adversely affect his numbers.  He is a young solid WR who can be a 90 catch target hog in our O, I'm optimistic that Edwards can be that guy but as I have stated in prior posts if one of our key WR's goes down and we move on from Williams our corp is once again bottom of the barrel.  

Yeah, I’m with you in context.  But what I said was: if Juju has a 2nd down year and doesn’t prove he can be a WR1 then he ain’t worth 17M.  I specifically avoided being stats into the debate.  I’d love Juju over Williams, who wouldn’t.  I’m not trying to play the Symantec’s game with you.  Im saying we can’t pay him 17M if he is proven NOT to be a WR1 but instead a high level WR2.

[Frankie2Gunz]

22 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yeah, I’m with you in context.  But what I said was: if Juju has a 2nd down year and doesn’t prove he can be a WR1 then he ain’t worth 17M.  I specifically avoided being stats into the debate.  I’d love Juju over Williams, who wouldn’t.  I’m not trying to play the Symantec’s game with you.  Im saying we can’t pay him 17M if he is proven NOT to be a WR1 but instead a high level WR2.

I get what you're saying but as you know I think there are very few elite #1's in football.  Juju is not one of them....  With that being said let's say we let TW walk what would a good alternative replacement be of the FA available next season in that 12 range?  All of the WR's we have mentioned will command 15ish if they hit the market and none of them are elite #1's.  TW has to be replaced because as I have pointed out we are banking on 2 players to step up who have never taken an NFL snap.  

Let's assume both Ruggs and Edwards are as good as advertised we would be one injury away from being a bottom tier WR corp again.  I don't think we can afford to take a risk like that and lets say Ruggs goes down in 21.  We would be fielding Edwards, Renfrow, Augholr and Zay Jones....  that would not be good.  

I also like Golladay but I am quite sure he will be locked up long term by Detroit.  

[jimkelly02]

24 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I get what you're saying but as you know I think there are very few elite #1's in football.  Juju is not one of them....  With that being said let's say we let TW walk what would a good alternative replacement be of the FA available next season in that 12 range?  All of the WR's we have mentioned will command 15ish if they hit the market and none of them are elite #1's.  TW has to be replaced because as I have pointed out we are banking on 2 players to step up who have never taken an NFL snap.  

Let's assume both Ruggs and Edwards are as good as advertised we would be one injury away from being a bottom tier WR corp again.  I don't think we can afford to take a risk like that and lets say Ruggs goes down in 21.  We would be fielding Edwards, Renfrow, Augholr and Zay Jones....  that would not be good.  

I also like Golladay but I am quite sure he will be locked up long term by Detroit.  

 I love you bro but your adding words to my argument that just aren’t there.

i didn’t say juju had to be an “ELITE WR1”.  You can’t find those in FA at any cost.  He’s  simply gotta have a season where he can prove he’s a legit #1 Option to be worth that kinda money.  That’s the only “argument” in making.  
 

if you want a real argument against us paying a WR 17M it’d be: in our offense, with Ruggs being a high end WR2, Waller being the main target as a TE, Edwards +Renfrow being A very solid WR4 and slot WR, plus 5th and 6th WRs like Jones+Agholor etc, there isn’t the need to pay top money for a “WR1” that will not be targeted as heavily as they would on other teams due to Carr spreading the ball around to so many options.  
 

now I’m not making that argument just yet... just saying it exists and has some relevance.

 

plus your making some big assumptions here: your assuming Juju gets back to his previous season’s production which happened once.... And Williams again isn’t healthy, which he had one injury last year but besides that hadn’t been Majorly injury plagued.

Edited July 20, 2020 by jimkelly02

[Frankie2Gunz]

40 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

 I love you bro but your adding words to my argument that just aren’t there.

i didn’t say juju had to be an “ELITE WR1”.  You can’t find those in FA at any cost.  He’s  simply gotta have a season where he can prove he’s a legit #1 Option to be worth that kinda money.  That’s the only “argument” in making.  
 

if you want a real argument against us paying a WR 17M it’d be: in our offense, with Ruggs being a high end WR2, Waller being the main target as a TE, Edwards +Renfrow being A very solid WR4 and slot WR, plus 5th and 6th WRs like Jones+Agholor etc, there isn’t the need to pay top money for a “WR1” that will not be targeted as heavily as they would on other teams due to Carr spreading the ball around to so many options.  
 

now I’m not making that argument just yet... just saying it exists and has some relevance.

 

plus your making some big assumptions here: your assuming Juju gets back to his previous season’s production which happened once.... And Williams again isn’t healthy, which he had one injury last year but besides that hadn’t been Majorly injury plagued.

You're right that there are not many Elite #1's n the NFL, contrary to what many of the talking heads on TV try to vomit all over us.  Guys like Thomas, Julio, NUk, "sane" AB are few and far between.  

I would venture to argue that our O needs a WR who is a reception hog (90+ receptions per) or someone who will command a double team which would allow Waller, Ruggs, Edwards and Renfrow to eat in single coverage.  While Juju may not be a "elite" number 1 or a number 1 who is recession proof, he can be the player I mentioned above and to me that is worth 17 if TW is worth 11.5.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

Let me ask you a few questions....

What we currently know about Juju what would his fair market value be today?

Of next years FA WR's mentioned (Juju, Robinson, Golliday, Kupp) how much do you think fair market value is for each?

How many number 1 WR's are in the NFL today and who are they?  I am always fascinated to see what people consider number #1 WR's as I value your opinion.  

 

[agarcia34]

Look at this 😍

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 minute ago, agarcia34 said:

Look at this 😍

Pales in comparison to the Coliseum lol 

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

You're right that there are not many Elite #1's n the NFL, contrary to what many of the talking heads on TV try to vomit all over us.  Guys like Thomas, Julio, NUk, "sane" AB are few and far between.  

I would venture to argue that our O needs a WR who is a reception hog (90+ receptions per) or someone who will command a double team which would allow Waller, Ruggs, Edwards and Renfrow to eat in single coverage.  While Juju may not be a "elite" number 1 or a number 1 who is recession proof, he can be the player I mentioned above and to me that is worth 17 if TW is worth 11.5.  That is the point I am trying to make.  

Let me ask you a few questions....

What we currently know about Juju what would his fair market value be today?

Of next years FA WR's mentioned (Juju, Robinson, Golliday, Kupp) how much do you think fair market value is for each?

How many number 1 WR's are in the NFL today and who are they?  I am always fascinated to see what people consider number #1 WR's as I value your opinion.  

 

I just personally don’t want to get into what players are “#1 WRs”.  It’s nothing personal, i just think there’s too much room for arguing yes or no on most of them.  Besides the (just off the top of my head.... it’s just an expression really... not looking at any list) top 5-7ish the other half or so that might make up such a list can be debated both for and not equally IMO.

I don’t think we need an prototypical “WR1”, infact I think this whole offense was build around the fact it doesn’t need one.  With so many diverse receiving options (Waller is a really unique TE as he can run anything from TE screens to deep routes; Renfrow is a short to intermediate shifty slot WR + Jones/Agholor will bring the speed, size, athleticism that Renfrow lacks; Ruggs is a deep threat but can also thrive on screens+slants; Edwards should be a big body WR similar; etc etc) that we don’t need a WR that is usually the primary target on most plays.  I’d go so far as to say in our offense you’d likely limit a “WR1’s” production.  That doesn’t mean it’d be bad or hurt to have a guy like Juju.

im just not ready to crown and pay a juju top 6-8 WR money.  He has one had one really good year but then had a very pedestrian follow up year.  Obviously there were several contributing factors.  I’m not saying he can’t be in the WR1 category (which itself Is a ‘social construct’ in the sense it’s a made up categorization of players) but I am saying this year he has a lot to prove and his level of success Will determine his next contract.

i think 17-19M is what Golliday, A.Robinson, + Juju could get.  But the market could only be 15-16 if the cap is effected majorly by Covid.  Who knows what the guy really holds in these crazy times. 
 

My thing is only that Juju’s next deal will be dictated one way or another by his play this year.  If he has a down year expect 10-13M; if a okay year 14-15, if he’s playing like ‘18 then 17-19.

Its not logical to assume Juju will be at ‘18 form and Williams will just be an injured, low level WR2.  Williams had a great first 5’ish games before injury.  Things just need to shake out, nothing is set in stone.  

If Williams can give us 70-80 catches and 1000-1150 yards I’d absolutely call it crazy to get rid of him.  At that point Williams and Ruggs would be an ideal combo of starters.  There imo wouldn’t be the need to pay more for a better WR.  We have other needs and Edwards developing too.

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Look at this 😍

That’s just insanely amazing and beautiful.  The players must be stoked!  What a great way to recruit FAs by showing them world class facilities on visits.

[Frankie2Gunz]

55 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

I just personally don’t want to get into what players are “#1 WRs”.  It’s nothing personal, i just think there’s too much room for arguing yes or no on most of them.  Besides the (just off the top of my head.... it’s just an expression really... not looking at any list) top 5-7ish the other half or so that might make up such a list can be debated both for and not equally IMO.

I don’t think we need an prototypical “WR1”, infact I think this whole offense was build around the fact it doesn’t need one.  With so many diverse receiving options (Waller is a really unique TE as he can run anything from TE screens to deep routes; Renfrow is a short to intermediate shifty slot WR + Jones/Agholor will bring the speed, size, athleticism that Renfrow lacks; Ruggs is a deep threat but can also thrive on screens+slants; Edwards should be a big body WR similar; etc etc) that we don’t need a WR that is usually the primary target on most plays.  I’d go so far as to say in our offense you’d likely limit a “WR1’s” production.  That doesn’t mean it’d be bad or hurt to have a guy like Juju.

im just not ready to crown and pay a juju top 6-8 WR money.  He has one had one really good year but then had a very pedestrian follow up year.  Obviously there were several contributing factors.  I’m not saying he can’t be in the WR1 category (which itself Is a ‘social construct’ in the sense it’s a made up categorization of players) but I am saying this year he has a lot to prove and his level of success Will determine his next contract.

i think 17-19M is what Golliday, A.Robinson, + Juju could get.  But the market could only be 15-16 if the cap is effected majorly by Covid.  Who knows what the guy really holds in these crazy times. 
 

My thing is only that Juju’s next deal will be dictated one way or another by his play this year.  If he has a down year expect 10-13M; if a okay year 14-15, if he’s playing like ‘18 then 17-19.

Its not logical to assume Juju will be at ‘18 form and Williams will just be an injured, low level WR2.  Williams had a great first 5’ish games before injury.  Things just need to shake out, nothing is set in stone.  

If Williams can give us 70-80 catches and 1000-1150 yards I’d absolutely call it crazy to get rid of him.  At that point Williams and Ruggs would be an ideal combo of starters.  There imo wouldn’t be the need to pay more for a better WR.  We have other needs and Edwards developing too.

I don't think we need a prototypical number 1 as well but not knowing what we really have in Edwards as of right now I feel like a Juju type would be a nice addition.  TW and Juju are different type of Wr's and have different skillsets.  Williams is tall, fast and is a field stretcher but has questionable hands and is not the physical, over the middle type of WR who will be a 100 reception guy.  He will also be turning 30 towards the end of next season which is where players start to lose a step.  Without his speed his game is below average.

Juju is just starting his prime at 23 and is a more physical than Williams.  Now I am hoping that Edwards can be our Juju but without seeing him in NFL action I will reserve that thought and that is why I am throwing this out there.  

If Juju has a down year and hits the market and the asking price is 10 to 13 million that is a flat out no brainer.  I do not think Williams is a bad WR and if he puts up 1100/7 and no better options hit the market then I would be for keeping him at 11.5 for next season.  I also think that the Wr's mentioned will be in that 17 million range and if that is the case I would rather take my chances on the 23 year old but Robinson and Golliday at 26 still have 4 prime years left.  

I fell like a big and physical WR will compliment Ruggs game very well, which is why MM went after Edwards.  I like what I saw from Edwards in college and feel like he can be our Juju but only time will tell....

Let's also say that Williams has another down year and is battling injuries again he will need need to be replaced, I don't think there is any questioning that.  If we go into 2021 with Ruggs, Edwards, Renfrow and Agholor and say Ruggs gets injured we are in a world of hurt at the WR position, I don't think there is any debating that.  

Edited July 21, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I don't think we need a prototypical number 1 as well but not knowing what we really have in Edwards as of right now I feel like a Juju type would be a nice addition.  TW and Juju are different type of Wr's and have different skillsets.  Williams is tall, fast and is a field stretcher but has questionable hands and is not the physical, over the middle type of WR who will be a 100 reception guy.  He will also be turning 30 towards the end of next season which is where players start to lose a step.  Without his speed his game is below average.

Juju is just starting his prime at 23 and is a more physical than Williams.  Now I am hoping that Edwards can be our Juju but without seeing him in NFL action I will reserve that thought and that is why I am throwing this out there.  

If Juju has a down year and hits the market and the asking price is 10 to 13 million that is a flat out no brainer.  I do not think Williams is a bad WR and if he puts up 1100/7 and no better options hit the market then I would be for keeping him at 11.5 for next season.  I also think that the Wr's mentioned will be in that 17 million range and if that is the case I would rather take my chances on the 23 year old but Robinson and Golliday at 26 still have 4 prime years left.  

I fell like a big and physical WR will compliment Ruggs game very well, which is why MM went after Edwards.  I like what I saw from Edwards in college and feel like he can be our Juju but only time will tell....

Let's also say that Williams has another down year and is battling injuries again he will need need to be replaced, I don't think there is any questioning that.  If we go into 2021 with Ruggs, Edwards, Renfrow and Agholor and say Ruggs gets injured we are in a world of hurt at the WR position, I don't think there is any debating that.  

Yeah basically the what i previously said.... I don’t have any disagreements with that.  You always have to look for upgrades and no matter how well Williams does if someone better is available for a reasonable amount more you make the move.

Dont get me wrong I’d love Juju in ‘21.  But he’s got a lot to prove this year.  Being the #1 is a pretty big change from having AB taking a lot of the coverage/scheme attention.  Obviously when you got “Duck” Devlin as your QB your gonna have a drop off in production.  He is still sooo darn young. Turns 24 on week 11 (nov 22).  He’s just hitting his prime years....should be able to play through a 5 year deal engine get a decent 3rd contract.

Juju and Golliday should be the targets of consideration.  Pitt has a habit of letting players hit FA.  Detroit doesn’t have a ton of costly players and should have no problem extending or franchising Golliday, I unfortunately don’t see him hitting the open market.

Also, I think a speedy, tall WR like Williams is actually a good compliment to Ruggs.  We can use Edwards as the physical WR, but having Ruggs and Williams being able to seriously challenge defenses deep makes it difficult to slide the Deep safety to just one side of the field.  Teams aren’t able to move the SS into the box to combat Jacobs in the run game Anae slide the FS to just Rugg’s side.  There aren’t many FS’s that can truly centerfield and cover both halves of the field.  If you slide too much to Ruggs then Williams can take the top of the Defense on the other side.

Edited July 21, 2020 by jimkelly02